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Old 16 Nov 2006, 10:49 (Ref:1767570)   #51
Bob Riebe
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Originally Posted by ChironWSC
.

Bob are you serious? If so i am worried that you are even posting on this thread.
Worried
Son you gotta open your mind a little, I assumed (bad move) others would know I did not mean immediately; take two of the current Corvettes: one with the restrictors and one without the restrictor.
Have them from a standing start race one mile straight, turn around by any means that works and then race back.
Which car would you bet money on winning easily?

Gee golly isn't that why the ACO strangles the cars so they go more slowly.
That way they would put on a good show for a few years, until the chassis boys figured out how to put several hundred extra horses to the ground.
Allowing wider tires would reduce the time considerably.

The cars would no longer have quasi-slot car track aero aids, so different driving styles would be plainly displayed in corner entrance and exit, as the best, and those with large cajones, would learn quickly how to deal with a lot more horse power, and a lot less artificial stick caused by diffusers, and maybe wings, if the sanction wanted the speed recovery to last longer.

In the original IMSA series, the tube GTO cars, with smaller tires and engines, and no wings, were lapping as fast the the previous radical AAGT cars, within about four years.
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 11:13 (Ref:1767606)   #52
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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Hmm, you seem to think they need items like wings and diffusers to go fast, but are silent as a church mouse about engines that produce greatly reduced horse power, do to artificial contrived restrictors.

They can go just as quickly without the diffusers, or wings, it justs takes a more talented or determined driver to do so.
Bob
Quite as a church mouse over artifical contrived restrictors .....

Cuz i dont fully understand them ..... ok with that ?

I personally dont agree with them at all , and would like that they wernt there to be honest ..... but if we dont have them , we will end up with a one make winner . Do we want that ?

What choices are there to slow the cars down then ?

Air restrictors , ballast penalties , flat bottom , adjusting the rear wing sizes (MC12 style) ..... what else ?

Maybe you should ask one of the Creation boys (another thread) ..... if a Creation could or would go as fast around Le Mans or any other track without a rear wing or a diffuser !!! See what they say about it .

So , yes ..... they do need wings and diffisers to go as fast , or am I wrong again ?
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 11:16 (Ref:1767610)   #53
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Originally Posted by WouterM
You were not aware of this? Planes can fly without wings, it just takes a very determined pilot to do so. The only reason they have wings right now is to store fuel.

Planes cant fly without wings .... your talking about rockets .

Determined pilot and lots of speed ..... but not in control completely .
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 12:27 (Ref:1767672)   #54
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Bob I fail to see what wings and restrictors have to with eachother. The wings are there to provide stability in a straight line and down force in corners. The restrictors are there to enable cars of a wide variety of specifications to race eachother.

Are you seriously suggesting that Le Mans would be a better place if we had a group of almost identical wingless cars race for 24 hours?
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 12:28 (Ref:1767673)   #55
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Originally Posted by The Badger
Planes cant fly without wings .... your talking about rockets .

Determined pilot and lots of speed ..... but not in control completely .
It's all propaganda fed to the world by wing manufacturers.
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 14:20 (Ref:1767776)   #56
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AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Screw the restrictors and weight pennelties. Let the GT1 cars go as fast as possible. If the wind up faster the LMP2 cars GREAT.

Lets not slow some cars down, but encurage the slower cars to go faster and develop better technolgies to do so.

GT1 and LMP1 cars are not that different, especially when you look at something like the MC12 and the new closed cockpit rules for 2010.
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 15:51 (Ref:1767846)   #57
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Originally Posted by AU N EGL
Screw the restrictors and weight pennelties. Let the GT1 cars go as fast as possible. If the wind up faster the LMP2 cars GREAT.

Lets not slow some cars down, but encurage the slower cars to go faster and develop better technolgies to do so.

GT1 and LMP1 cars are not that different, especially when you look at something like the MC12 and the new closed cockpit rules for 2010.
The removal of restrictors will be the end of variation on the grid. Imagine 12 Corvettes racing eachother.
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 16:49 (Ref:1767900)   #58
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I'm with Bob on this, I'd much prefare a 650-700bhp GT1 car, weighining 1000kg, without any aero devices.

You'd achive similar laps times, and if you must, could fit some kind of Gurney to keep top speeds in check.

I'd don't see the point in production GT1 cars with massive wings and diffusers, yet loaded down with ballast and restrictor cuts.

Give the cars some room to develop over time.

At the moment they are over engineered for the class pace they are designed to run.

Last edited by JAG; 16 Nov 2006 at 16:59.
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 16:54 (Ref:1767903)   #59
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Originally Posted by AU N EGL

GT1 and LMP1 cars are not that different, especially when you look at something like the MC12 and the new closed cockpit rules for 2010.
The MC12 and an LMP1 are not a million miles away, then again, I want to see 911's and Corvettes in GT1, not purpose built race cars homologated for the road.
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 17:43 (Ref:1767929)   #60
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Originally Posted by WouterM
It's all propaganda fed to the world by wing manufacturers.
I will send that to Airbus UK tommorw
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 18:14 (Ref:1767956)   #61
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Originally Posted by WouterM
The removal of restrictors will be the end of variation on the grid. Imagine 12 Corvettes racing eachother.
and your point is? It works for me as I do it all the time.

Or other manufactures will just have to step up to make faster cars.
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 18:21 (Ref:1767964)   #62
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Originally Posted by AU N EGL
and your point is? It works for me as I do it all the time.

Or other manufactures will just have to step up to make faster cars.
Right. Well I'd rather see as many manufacturers on the grid as possible. All with a chance of winning.
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 19:13 (Ref:1767996)   #63
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HORNDAWG should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHORNDAWG should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHORNDAWG should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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WouterM

The removal of restrictors will be the end of variation on the grid. Imagine 12 Corvettes racing eachother.
What pray tell gives you that idea! Granted the Corvette has a thumper of an engine but in no way is that the only factor. The AM has predominantly longer legs than the Corvette. It is the entire package of Corvette / Pratt&Miller that everybody has a hard time with. They are using the restrictions to overcome that. And the Aston #'s as published are higher than the Corvette's( AM 600hp/700tq vs Vette 590hp/640tq).And how do you come to the conclusion that other Vette teams will fair any better???



L.P.
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Old 16 Nov 2006, 20:18 (Ref:1768034)   #64
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Originally Posted by WouterM
The removal of restrictors will be the end of variation on the grid. Imagine 12 Corvettes racing eachother.
Remove restrictors and it will be turbo powered cars that dominate.
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Old 17 Nov 2006, 05:06 (Ref:1768238)   #65
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Originally Posted by JAG
Remove restrictors and it will be turbo powered cars that dominate.
Blowers are the lazy mans way of imitating mucho cubes of displacement.
The Porsche 935 did not dominate due to horsepower, it was the rest of the package the performed outstandingly.
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Old 17 Nov 2006, 08:50 (Ref:1768330)   #66
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Originally Posted by HORNDAWG
What pray tell gives you that idea! Granted the Corvette has a thumper of an engine but in no way is that the only factor. The AM has predominantly longer legs than the Corvette. It is the entire package of Corvette / Pratt&Miller that everybody has a hard time with. They are using the restrictions to overcome that. And the Aston #'s as published are higher than the Corvette's( AM 600hp/700tq vs Vette 590hp/640tq).And how do you come to the conclusion that other Vette teams will fair any better???



L.P.
Well if that's the case then imagine 12 Astons racing eachother. I have little doubt that one of the packages will prove superior and dominate the grids in numbers.
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Old 17 Nov 2006, 09:14 (Ref:1768360)   #67
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after the first pratice session in dubai the larbre ferrari was faster than the bartels/bertolini maserati, longin/kumpen/hezemens corvette and the gollin/ramos aston martin. also was 0.872 seconds off the fastest time set by the phoneix racing aston .

looks as if this new engine has potential
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Old 17 Nov 2006, 11:48 (Ref:1768478)   #68
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The reason for the aero rules, as they are, is to remove the need for homologation specials. We all saw what happened in BTCC (touring cars) when the Alfa and BMW teams had special 'road car' wings and adjustable splitters - exactly the same would happen in GT racing.

By allowing a fairly controlled aero package there's no need to homologate tricky bodywork, which would cost a considerable amount of money.

Back to the topic. I like this electronically controlled engine initiative a lot - it'll save an awful lot of money. From a personal point of view, we're currently converting our Mosler to GT3 spec, which involves changing to the LS7 engine. That engine, in a crate from GM, costs £8.5k and creates around 520bhp without restrictors. To make a GT2 version (on twin 29mm restrictors) of our regular 5.7 create that amount of power would cost, as I remember, £20k. The LS7 revs lower, is more drivable, needs less rebuilds and has more power and torque. Free lunch, you might say - but if we were to run it in a conventional GT2 manner we'd have to spend a fortune on development just to get that power back.

I'm all for initiatives that help us, as teams, to compete without spending vast amounts on engines - often the biggest single expenditure on a car. The technology is now available to restrict engines without merely choking them, so lets embrace it.
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Old 17 Nov 2006, 12:31 (Ref:1768537)   #69
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Originally Posted by Svierge
The reason for the aero rules, as they are, is to remove the need for homologation specials. We all saw what happened in BTCC (touring cars) when the Alfa and BMW teams had special 'road car' wings and adjustable splitters - exactly the same would happen in GT racing.

By allowing a fairly controlled aero package there's no need to homologate tricky bodywork, which would cost a considerable amount of money.

Back to the topic. I like this electronically controlled engine initiative a lot - it'll save an awful lot of money. From a personal point of view, we're currently converting our Mosler to GT3 spec, which involves changing to the LS7 engine. That engine, in a crate from GM, costs £8.5k and creates around 520bhp without restrictors. To make a GT2 version (on twin 29mm restrictors) of our regular 5.7 create that amount of power would cost, as I remember, £20k. The LS7 revs lower, is more drivable, needs less rebuilds and has more power and torque. Free lunch, you might say - but if we were to run it in a conventional GT2 manner we'd have to spend a fortune on development just to get that power back.

I'm all for initiatives that help us, as teams, to compete without spending vast amounts on engines - often the biggest single expenditure on a car. The technology is now available to restrict engines without merely choking them, so lets embrace it.
For GT3 the so called Gentlemans racing go for it. GT2 and GT1, Not a chance, let the Big Dogs run. Combine the two classes into one call GT1. Some cars may be road going conversions to Street cars, Call them Prep I and others are special purpose built cars that LOOK like road going cars, Call these Prep II. That is one think I do like about Grand AM, they have the Prep I and Prep II race cars.

The Corvette C6.r's are winter testing in Sebring this week. The new rules imposed for 2007 were to slow the cars down. Well as good engineers do , the cars are now faster and more nimble then last year.
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Old 17 Nov 2006, 13:44 (Ref:1768593)   #70
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Pole Position for the "G2" Ferrari F550 Maranello 'Evo': 1 55 987
at 0.080 and 0.089 the 2 Aston Martin BMS Pirelli
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Old 17 Nov 2006, 14:26 (Ref:1768625)   #71
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Originally Posted by AU N EGL
For GT3 the so called Gentlemans racing go for it. GT2 and GT1, Not a chance, let the Big Dogs run.
I can assure you that we're not gentlemen.

Yes, okay, let the "big dogs run". Then you have a four-car GT1 class in ALMS and declining numbers in FIA GT. Like now...
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Old 17 Nov 2006, 15:08 (Ref:1768649)   #72
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I'm still somewhere in between Bob and the rest here...
Completely against air restrictors for all the reasons mentioned above. There are better ways to equalize engine performance a bit, that don't encourage the big players to develop pointless high-tech, relatively low performance engines. IF that is desirable...
My biggest objection is that the current engines have very little to do with any prod. engine.
I'm not fully against add-on aero devices like wings and diffusers. I already said enough about wings, look above. A flat bottom and diffuser aren't that expensive to develop. And cars that run that low to the ground will inevitable use its underbody for downforce, so maybe they should look into that. If the cars run just a bit higher, I guarantee you that tiny diffuser won't yield slot-car like handling by a long shot. But ideally I would like them to stick to the stock underbody. They should pay more attention to that 'dark side of the moon' on prod. cars anyway.
Come to think of it, maybe Svierges post best reflects my opinion.

'Remove restrictors and it will be turbo powered cars that dominate.'
True. Turbo engines would pretty much dominate every racing series, if they were allowed to, I think. So restrict them
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Old 17 Nov 2006, 17:37 (Ref:1768725)   #73
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Originally Posted by mirkob
Pole Position for the "G2" Ferrari F550 Maranello 'Evo': 1 55 987
at 0.080 and 0.089 the 2 Aston Martin BMS Pirelli
Compare with 05, G2 550 would have been grid 3 in GT1, pole Aston last year (Bouchut/Ortelli) was on Michelin as is the Larbre car.
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Old 17 Nov 2006, 17:45 (Ref:1768736)   #74
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AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Svierge
I can assure you that we're not gentlemen.
Neither are we on this side of the pond

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Yes, okay, let the "big dogs run". Then you have a four-car GT1 class in ALMS and declining numbers in FIA GT. Like now...
You might be surrpiesed. Too much limitation and the manufactures say good by. A few rules too alow competitiveness, but not too many to chase the big money teams and sponsors away.
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Old 18 Nov 2006, 06:28 (Ref:1768985)   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svierge
I can assure you that we're not gentlemen.

Yes, okay, let the "big dogs run". Then you have a four-car GT1 class in ALMS and declining numbers in FIA GT. Like now...
Yes that is true, but then the ALMS may not even have that next year if Corvette are seriously considering pulling the plug on their ALMS campaign. A couple of weeks ago Doug Fehan was quoted in Autosport magazine as saying that Corvette was looking at running their C6R's over in the LMS for 2007 along with the Spa 24hrs and of course Le Mans. There is a strong possibilty of there being no factory C6R's in the ALMS for much of the 2007 season.
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