6hrs of Spa Francorchamps - 2011

[john ruston]

Not many posters.Sign of times or is because Historic Racing is a bit of a joke.This thread is about 700 posts short or just Terry stopped posting.

There was one exceedingly doggy GT 40 in last years 6 hrs.Bloke probably printed the papers himself.It got in Eau Rouge but was entered in actual race by owner.Think its on the list again this year.Joke.I saw tub being built five years ago!
Not UK gang so don't get all bent out of shape.

On same tack I have a question about Lotus Cortinas?

Many years ago I used to watch that decent driver Jim Clark race one of these things and they used to lift one or even two wheels.I watched the race at Silverstone Festival and noted all wheels on ground so are they Lotus Cortinas or do todays cars just look like a Chapman special.Probably helps with those computers doing all the engineering in pits.Could it be the over 50's driving them today are superior to Jim Clark and the drivers of yesterday.Yer!

You wonder why people are less interested.Best of luck Mr Hall.

A re-enactment of History or do people want all this development bull****.

Back to same old stuff.

[John Turner]

Cheer up, John, it's not all bad.

I'm not sure I want pure re enactment, if the same cars win all the time; can't see the point of repeating history because the races then become a demonstration; on the other hand I don't want historics turned into hotrods either, so share your view. However, as you say, we've been down this road before. Spa certainly seems to have had its share of contentious cars in recent years.

In respect of LCs, I'd be interested in getting our mate SH's response to this, but he probably won't.

[Peter Mallett]

As Zef pointed out. it was the A frame LC that raised its wheels. But with modern materials you can do it with most cars these days. will you be there John (T)?

[John Turner]

Sadly not; personal circumstances again, really; no-one to look after the dogs for starters. I also have some paid work on in the week running up to it which I simply cannot turn away now. I do hope to get to this event one day though before I get too much older!

[zefarelly]

There are far more knowledgable people than I, I doubt they'll be piping up on here.

I'd bet my house 90% of the shells racing now are 50%+ stiffer than new, coupled with better suspension and 'optimised' geometry set ups, they're not going to lift,why would you want any less tan 4 tyres on the deck?

The LC guys generally run much stiffer than me at the front, 6 or even 700lb I've heard of (possibly bull****?) and 1" ARB instead of 7/8 or 15/16 ( not sure thats an homologated item? or if it matters? 3/4" and 7/8" is standard. Location should be std and rarely is. I guess thats all personal set up preference. but shells should, in theory at least be production

I have a few photo's of me with a light front, and one with a lifted wheel circa 2004 when I ran softer springs. I'm sure shell wear and flex has taken its toll on my car as well, its I bog standard with a 6 point bolt in cage, but it doesn't visibly lift, to my knowledge.

I think what makes the front lift is the soft/flexible rear end. The early GT only has leaf springs and didn't lift in '63 . . . . the early LC an A-frame, which will effectively tilt the shell. I don't believe the later GT/LC radius arm set up is very good in low race trim and I have NEVER seen a standard set up on a race car, they're all modified.

Dan Cox old LC lifted a wheel in the paddock, it has/had an A frame set up of sorts. possibly like the MK2 COrtinas seen here.


THere are too many variables there to give any single reason other than spring rates, which are possible to benefit from because of all the other improvements??? As Mr HAdfield has pointed out, we can't unlearn what we've learnt. But personally I think we can halt an arms race.

[zefarelly]

BOT . . Its unlikely I'll make it again this year, busy next weekend and the weekend after Spa . . . a shame as its a great weekend. I'm hoping there will be something worthwhile to do next year. The Tornado or the Cortina in the 6 hour is a possibility, although still unsure as to the wisdom of doing it!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by john ruston

On same tack I have a question about Lotus Cortinas?

Many years ago I used to watch that decent driver Jim Clark race one of these things and they used to lift one or even two wheels.I watched the race at Silverstone Festival and noted all wheels on ground so are they Lotus Cortinas or do todays cars just look like a Chapman special.Probably helps with those computers doing all the engineering in pits.Could it be the over 50's driving them today are superior to Jim Clark and the drivers of yesterday.Yer!

I still see some Cortinas wheel waving JR. Quite a few at times if I am the right sort of corner.

On another thread a couple of days ago (can't recall which at the moment) it was suggested, if I read it right, that wheel waving was more likely if the car is running the early A-frame suspension setup that was fairly quickly dropped from production cars.

SH is a regular wheel lifter.

One of the more spectacular examples this year was seeing Craig Dolby (a young Superleague driver) in full Clark and Hill mode at Snetterton first time out in the car he was driving. In the modern day parlance of the snowboarding set (if I have that right) he was getting 'good air'.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=163

and the following post for photographic evidence.

That said I do wonder if modern engineeering of suspension components, possibly different tyre technology and increase roll cage strength (etc.) for the shells may have altered the way the things handle irrespective of whether any other non-period changes have been made.

Then again it might just be that the current owners are less likely to see their steed as a 'race and discard' tool in the same way that the works and semi-works efforts would have done back in the 60s.

[grantp]

Hmm.

Spend too long creating a reply and searching for links and the whole world dives in to answer the question and make you look stupid ...!

Zef, I had that video of the Mk2 in mind when writing my last post and wondered what rear suspension they were running. It looks very soft on the vid. but I also wonder if there was something about the track surface and camber that made that particular section especially spectacular.

[midgetman]

Here we go again, hot rods v exact recreations.

What's the purpose of motor racing at our "old chap" level? 1. To entertain the drivers and 2. to entertain any crowds that turn up.

Judging by the grids, historic racing as it is fulfils 1 and judging by the attendance next weekend and also the much-derided Silverstone Classic, clearly fulfils 2.

So what's the problem? If the old chaps want to play with period cars subtly modified for modern use then why not? If the *majority* of the grid wanted to exactly recreate old cars then they would, and policing the "cheats" would be easy. And if a small percentage of the old car world craves exact Appx K, then who really cares if the grids are full and the crowds are flocking in?

Or we could have two grids - one for "Cars that go as they did in period" and one for "Cars that encourage hard racing/giant killing acts of derring do/visual spectacle". Come to think of it, we need races for the former, it gives time for the punters to visit my stand because the average fan won't be interested.

Re Jim Clark waving a wheel - Jim Clark was one of the greatest racing drivers who ever lived, doubtless he'd be lifting the front wheel of a golf buggy.

[morninggents]

In response to Grant and Zef re Lotus Cortina wheel lifting in this and the Gold Cup thread it's my car that Craig Dolby drove at Snetterton in June. Although Craig is in a different league to the regular drivers of this car (and to most historic car drivers) the car has started this year to lift the inside front whoever drives it. I have been racing this car since 1989 and it has a simple 6 point cage which is not welded to any part of the shell, though the shell was spot weld strengthened in all the usual places in 1989 with little rewelding since, and as I stated earlier, I'm sure the wheel lifting is a result of the rear leaf springs and shocks needing a bit of TLC combined with some shell 'fatigue'.

The roll bar on my HRSR car is 1 inch but the standard 1963 ARB size was 15/16" with optional 7/8".

Regarding the wheel lifting and suspension modifications of App K Cortinas I don't understand JR's problem with today's Cortinas and as Zef pointed out - why wave a wheel if you can have all four on the ground? I'm sure JC managed it because he was so much superior to the other touring car drivers of the era and liked to put on a show.

[terence]

With exceptions to one or two drivers,the only reason LCs lift wheels these days is because the drivers have launched them off of kerbs,they were not in use originally. Probably just did it because the rear springs were quite soft.
JR,fully agree,it IS a joke. As I said before,I voted with my feet.

[midgetman]

You may have done Terry but there's many more that haven't and the crowds love it!

[Peter Mallett]

Well, I'm looking forward to going back again.

Missed last year due to work commitments, but this year we have a whole new challenge! Then again I probably don't count when it comes to the "cognoccenti". In fact as long as the spirit of the event remains then I couldn't give a rat's arse for the originality debate and in fact I never have. Subject to qualifying we will be racing on the same track as the best historic racers in Europe, and seeing some of the best cars.

What is wrong with that?

[terence]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Or we could have two grids - one for "Cars that go as they did in period" and one for "Cars that encourage hard racing/giant killing acts of derring do/visual spectacle". Come to think of it, we need races for the former, it gives time for the punters to visit my stand because the average fan won't be interested.

Re Jim Clark waving a wheel - Jim Clark was one of the greatest racing drivers who ever lived, doubtless he'd be lifting the front wheel of a golf buggy.

So the Likes of Jim Clark,Jack Sears etal never showed a 'D erring Do or indeed a visual spectacle?

I have no problem with things like mechanical parts being changed [within reason!] But the biggest problem,if not checked,is that there are an awful lot of people taking their capability as a 'racing driver' far too seriously for historics. Mostly it is this kind of person who will bend rules/cheat or however they choose to defend their actions,just to get [hopefully] somewhere near the front of the grid. It is this kind of attitude that has wrecked FIA racing to a point where it cannot be brought back to a sensible level!

We all are entitled to make our own choices

[midgetman]

>>>>>>So the Likes of Jim Clark,Jack Sears etal never showed a 'D erring Do or indeed a visual spectacle?

Clark & Sears - YES.

Me and my mates in the same cars - NEVER!

I couldn't get (or give) the same entertainment in an FIA legal 998cc Sprite that I did in my FISC-spec 1380 hot rod. That's my very point....I'm not a good enough driver, so if I want to go quicker I enter an arms race.

For a spectator, the ICBMs of the historic world in the hands of mere mortals are as entertaining as the more humble cars in the hands of the aces.

[John Turner]

I love it when JR lights the touch paper and then retires to observe the outcome!

Maybe time to return to the thread topic?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by John Turner

I love it when JR lights the touch paper and then retires to observe the outcome!

Often referred to as trolling.

[Tim Falce]

Back on topic, my passes and final instructions have just arrived

[SZRacer]

Looking forward to Spa, as ever, this year.

Although, due to a change of plans (Mike Thorne has gone and joined the herd and bought a 'big banger' for the 6 hours, with someone else), I'm now no longer doing the 6 hours....(too many co-drivers already getting first dibs).

If anyone needs a third driver for 6 hours (unlikely, I know), let me know...

Still, will have to 'console myself' with just a one hour race in the Alfa in Pre-63, and a race in Mike's Healey 100M in Barry S-S's race.

Looking forward to seeing some of you in paddock/frites hut/pits etc...

(If you're listening, God, SURELY the weather must be better than last year....please? My race suit's only just dried out after a two hour stint in the (open-topped) Healey in the Six Hours last year)!

[Christian Devereux]

Originally Posted by SZRacer

(If you're listening, God, SURELY the weather must be better than last year....please? My race suit's only just dried out after a two hour stint in the (open-topped) Healey in the Six Hours last year)!

No, no, rain for 6 hours please!

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by midgetman

>>>>>>
I couldn't get (or give) the same entertainment in an FIA legal 998cc Sprite that I did in my FISC-spec 1380 hot rod. That's my very point....I'm not a good enough driver, so if I want to go quicker I enter an arms race.

For a spectator, the ICBMs of the historic world in the hands of mere mortals are as entertaining as the more humble cars in the hands of the aces.

we must not forget that cars liek 998cc Sprites were run in classes that no longer exist so I can see little reason as to why anyone would race a 998cc car several laps behind everyone else. If I had a Sprite I definitely woudl run a 1380 hot rod and have some fun!
This is why Ford Anglia's in FIA spec are a red herring

[Tim Falce]

Sods law that I bought 1500€ at 1.12 on Tuesday and the rate now is over 1.16 to the GBP

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Sods law that I bought 1500€ at 1.12 on Tuesday and the rate now is over 1.16 to the GBP

I would have given you a better rate from my € money tree Tim

[esper]

Originally Posted by Christian Devereux

No, no, rain for 6 hours please!

give us rain!

[zefarelly]

1.12. Fule!

Drabble: Class did and should, indeed does exist, its just a lack of opposition in certain places as everyone takes the easy/obvious route.

re Angles boxes, pre63 they where a close match for minis . . the tide turned regularly in either direction