LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[Deleted]

Even when all of the ELMS classes were still full pro as late as 2009 (not counting 2010 as FLM/LMPC had been integrated) pretty much everybody ranked it below it's American counterpart. And ALMS wasn't in the greatest of healths back then.

Anyway, as I said there, it's still a clear downgrade for the little group of fans there might be

[Giba]

I know this is bringing up old news but I've been having a think and when you look at last year's lmp2 Le Mans entry list there were 4 types of cars (ORECA, Morgan, ligier, Zytek ) and one engine supplying 13 of the 17 cars, then maybe if these new rules do happen it won't be as big a catastrophe as is being made out.

I will say this, I don't agree at all with this potential rule change as one of the reasons that I'm looking forward to this year's Le Mans is the variety of the p2 entry list and it would be a shame to lose that

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Giba

I know this is bringing up old news but I've been having a think and when you look at last year's lmp2 Le Mans entry list there were 4 types of cars (ORECA, Morgan, ligier, Zytek ) and one engine supplying 13 of the 17 cars, then maybe if these new rules do happen it won't be as big a catastrophe as is being made out.

Yeah but that number didn't include the open top HPDs or the ancient Lola-Mazdolas that weren't entered. In any case it was supposed to be 5x at LM last year with Dome before they withdraw, and over the winter the number has been extended to 8x with HPD coupe, SMP coupe and Oreca 05 coupe in addition to Dome coupe. Also if you count in Pilbeam it's gone up to 9x worldwide plus the Lolas

Nissan having the engine monopoly for the most part is what it is, but it is one thing to be controlled by one marque because of choice, and another to be forced to use that by law.

Same for the tires. Michelin being the choice of preference in LMP1 cannot be compared to mandated lamo Conti-Hoosiers in the States for example...

[Giba]

True, but I thought that last years Lmp2 entry list was of a great even though there wasn't as much variety as in the past.

Also, if the problem that seems to be mentioned is that constructors are not breaking even, then why did they decide to build more expensive coupes to sell for a loss to keep there share of the market?

I think the P2 category as it is today is not what the Aco imagined when the rules were announced in 2010 with the Norma being shown as what the class would look like in the future. Today is seems to be a category of cars of cost capped privateer P1 cars whereas the aco seem to want it to be like a PC+ category.

[Maelochs]

There might have been four manufacturers at Le Mans in P2 but they weren't all driving clone-cars with spec engines, either.

A lot of teams chose Nissan, but they could have chosen anything else as well. Now there is no choice.

Now we get spec tubs and spec engines, which means the only real differences will be the shape of the fenders, and the paint jobs.

Anyone who followed the Rolex series for several years knows what to expect---except there were more engine choices in Rolex.

Pretty sad when your slogan is "Almost as much variety as Rolex."

[Speed-King]

Now we get spec tubs

Has this actually been confirmed anywhere?

From the Dagys piece that started it all:

Under the new proposed regulations, the new-for-2017 LMP2 machinery would be legal for four years, with no new constructor being allowed to enter during that period. The cars would be based around the current LMP1 tub and safety structure, while also retaining the 1900 mm width currently seen in in the top prototype class.

The biggest difference, however, comes on the engine front, with the FIA and ACO proposing a spec four-liter normally aspirated V8 engine to be used in all cars competing in ACO-sanctioned series. It’s likely to result in an increase in power, to the range of roughly 50 horsepower.

And on DSC:

More than one manufacturer has confirmed to DSC today that the cost of producing a ‘clean sheet 2017 LMP coupe design would be c.£3-4 million GBP and that to justify that expenditure 8-10 cars would have to be sold.

The new cars would be based on a 2014 spec LMP1 monocoque with a 4 year homologation period for the new LMP2. Again that is a yardstick that seems to favour some established players over others.

One existing coupe manufacturer has confirmed that the cost of amending a current design would be far less, but still not inconsequential, and that they would need to build and sell at least 4 2017 cars to justify the investment.

[Maelochs]

No, none of this has been confirmed, and I have no way of knowing if there will be a common tub design , or what limits will be imposed, or even if there will be a spec engine. Until we get the official bad news from FIA, all I can do is fear and guess.

I am watching what IndyCar is doing with its "aero kits" and I think it is a really interesting way to get some actaul team engineering back into what is otherwise spec racing (as P2 sort of is and will be even more so.) Maybe FIA needs to look into something along those lines---not just a Le Mans and Sprint aero package, but a few optional modifiers (besides an extra dive plane) to create some different performance between cars?

I guess it might be a lot more expensive to design and build multiples noses and rear deck lids/fenders, though.

I just so do no want to see P2 become totally homogenized--IMSA Lites with a little longer wheelbase and a little more power.

[Deleted]

The Indycar bodykits for the spec Dallaras are for asthetics, not for performance differiating. As soon as the other party gets any kind of advantage, there's gonna be ****loads of crying and demands for parity, just as was the way with the engines.

If you listen to the MWM they did the week the news broke, you get the impression that this P2 proposal seems to be going very much forward and that the decisions for choosing new spec suppliers should be issued in few months time from now already.

Also Maelochs you seem to be forgetting the spec tires

[Maelochs]

Actually the IndyCar aero kits, while they might have been conceived as a way to help sponsors sell street cars, are turning out to be a little more than that With the ability to mix and match ramps, lumps, and winglets, teams should be able to tune their cars to different tracks--or fail to, and get beat soundly.

I guess I am just used to spec tires In the US I think only TUSC's GTLM class actually has tire competition. Oh, and tractor-pulling.

[gsmith2424]

Things not looking to good for HPD. Looks like they won't be on the grid this year with the new car.

http://www.racer.com/wec-le-mans/ite...ila-patron-esm

[Christian Mogami]

Wirth no wind tunnel testing looks like again a bad design idea!(ARX-O4b is design all on computer,no model wind testing to make sure it's ideas are right in the real world)

The ARX-O4b is great in their computer but a dog in the field(bad programmer or wrong info guidelines inputted?)

Thank GOD they didn't go P1!!!!

[schmidder]

Originally Posted by gsmith2424

Things not looking to good for HPD. Looks like they won't be on the grid this year with the new car.

http://www.racer.com/wec-le-mans/ite...ila-patron-esm

Pretty interesting article. The part about the ligier being a possible replacement I didn't understand. Wonder if they will run tusc with the old cars until they get the new one back.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by schmidder

Pretty interesting article. The part about the ligier being a possible replacement I didn't understand. Wonder if they will run tusc with the old cars until they get the new one back.

The ARX-O4b isn't an option for the WEC in 2015, the ARX-O3b is old and outclassed by more modern P2s. So hence the need for a replacement. The question is how soon can they get a Ligier or some other suitable car.

[templer]

What a bad situation for ESM. Even if they will get a Ligier right in time they have no preparation time for the new car.

Seems like the more advanced the sports prototypes get, the more limited is pure CFD-work.

If I look at the different aeros tested at Sebring , they differ mainly in the shape of the front diffusor exit in the sidepods and the shape of the sidepods leading edge. Seems the ARX-04b has a problem with ist front aero. ( dfront dffusor and the way the air is routed out of the car)

[chernaudi]

It it any coincidence that Audi, Porsche and Toyota, who do a lot of work with CFD on their LMP1 cars, also validate that stuff in a wind tunnel before decided on the final base spec of their cars?

It's clear that CFD isn't yet all that it's cracked up to be, certainly not good enough to totally replace wind tunnel testing.

[TheMightyM]

John Dagys article on the subject. The key quote:

[Scott] Sharp said the transition back to the 03b has been seamless, and he hopes to put on a competitive showing both at Sebring and Silverstone with the pair of open-top cars.

“It’s like putting on an old pair of shoes,” he said. “We jumped in the car last week at Sebring and we were immediately down to good times and were super comfortable. We have strong setups on the car. I think that’s a pretty easy move for us.

“Obviously, I don’t think that car is quite as quick as the new coupes out there but for hopefully reliability and longevity, for Sebring, that will work out well.

“We’ll probably have to race that car at Silverstone as well, which we’re hoping the short straights there will help aide the car’s competitiveness there. And hopefully starting at Spa, we’ll have two new Ligiers.”

[Deleted]

IMO the most beautiful LMP on the grid and now no hope of seeing it at Le Mans. God damn it. But more worryingly, with the projected spec-2017-mess we may not see the chassis on track very much at all on track before it's outlawed or at the very least dragged in for modifications.

03b is just so meh. The last open top HPD really worth caring of was the 01e

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Chiana

IMO the most beautiful LMP on the grid and now no hope of seeing it at Le Mans. God damn it. But more worryingly, with the projected spec-2017-mess we may not see the chassis on track very much at all on track before it's outlawed or at the very least dragged in for modifications.

I guess they aren't worried about WEC 2017 as long as they are still eligible to run in IMSA.

[TF110]

Should get a dome. That sucks for them but cfd only isn't going to hold up it seems. Oh well. Im not really looking forward to yet another ligier. Hope they get more development done and show up with it in the future.

[Deleted]

Should get a Dome? They've had even bigger problems in supplying just one chassis.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Should get a Dome? They've had even bigger problems in supplying just one chassis.

They did the same thing hpd is now doing. So how is it they have bigger problems when they actually have their car ready? Id rather see another dome than another ligier.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

They did the same thing hpd is now doing. So how is it they have bigger problems when they actually have their car ready? Id rather see another dome than another ligier.

HPD might be backing off but it has already raced. Dome has been delayed for over a year, and for single chassis. And the reasons have not always been cited on "performance".

Now, Dome might have a car ready for Strakka right now. But I don't think they have the resources to supply more than that without extra resources that they don't have. Even their previous LMP1 campaigns were always very minor in nature. Backing off from the GT500 also speaks for budget not being that great.

Of course I too would like to see something other than more of those Oak Coupes. Dome is exotic. But sometimes I think your love for everything Japanese blinds you

[TF110]

Strakka was a single car before they went with dome. That probably has no bearing on what they can produce. Dome was ready for a private lmp1 team and was an option for Rebellion by their admission.

If ESM comes with money, why wouldn't dome be able to produce a car? Do you think theyre hurt for cash so much they cant make more cars, even if they receive an order? That is what Im saying. They're purchasing two Ligier's, they obviously have the cash to buy new cars. Im not blinded by my love for "everything Japanese", definitely not Dome. I just dont wanna see more of the same.

[Deleted]

Onroak is mass producing those coupes, they can supply anyone asking fast and reliably. Dome is a small company, even if ESM paid them in full who's to say they'd construct the cars - and spare parts - ready for "secondary customers" fast enough. They've had issues with their own suppliers before.

Besides, would HPD (engine & team name) want to be associated with another Japanese manufacturer? Sure Honda had relationship with Dome in Super GT but that's different.

[Maelochs]

While Indycar is thrilling its fans, and grabbing ma little mainstream media attention with its aero kits, IMSA is dropping news like this on its fans ... a week before its biggest race.

Not IMSA's fault, I know ... but where is the Good news Sebring is next freaking weekend and all IMSA can really say is that some cars have entered.