Costs...

[kartingdad]

As long as the negotiations for the circuit hire were done sensibly, that shouldn't happen.

But I get your point, I used the word 'sensibly' there to justify my position, LOL

What happens in other countries then? (Bernies world not included of course..)

[Shoestring]

So if I am correct which seems to be the case about the 3yr rolling tyre tender and it was maybe done in the past by the works VD team it begs the question who does it now?
Is there still a tender process and who does it?...or does anyone do it at all I wonder?

Does more in the know than me have have any suggestions on who to contact re this and how it can be taken forward?

As Triple J says it should be open and published for all who buy these tyres and race in Club FF1600 to see.
The current lack of openess infers that there is something to hide and lends weight to the inference of jiggery pokery and cartels etc at our expense.

[driftwood]

considering the current state of the MP`s and their expenses total transparency should be the point here with regards to circuit rents club hires/running the event an dteh tyer situation

OK i will put my head upon the parapit wall ( or maybe the Guillotine !?) and make this suggestion

I am willing to go forth with the notion of tyre supply/testing as follows

1 I will as a commercial entity propose to find 3 tyre suppliers to put forward a product to be tested and a price to supply them at per unit/ per set
to evaluate the product and then be the distributor to sell to you racers the tyres for you to fit or if i have to attend meeting run a fitting service and yes I will be looking at a profit to be made how else can anyone service the needs of others

2 testing will be done independantly with 4 or 5 cars drivers same day at 3 circuits ie OPark donington/silverstone or brands AND anglesy
3 driver car team combo i am open to suggestion but i would suggest something from these
VD2k type car
VD90-92
reynard 87-90
and a mid 80`s Lola 644 type car or classi 70`s RP26 type car

3 Independant observers can be present at each test maybe you can suggest 2-4 suitable parties who have no team car driver interest ie Diz james B

the object will be to fiond a tyre that can compete within 1 second of teh current Avon product run more than 3 meetings beofre it wears out or lap times fall off dramatically AND be supplied at a sensible price say 290-300 quid plus queens pension contribution

The problem is what do you want
A perfomance at the same level as Avon ACB10
B a cheaper tyre
C tyre that last longer

you will not get aproduct that will do all of the above
COMPROMISE is what you willget on either lap times cost or perfomance
so for example would you be happy with £450 avons that lasted 6 meetings
or 300 avons that where lasting longer but 1 sec lap slower

I can only think of the FFord Dunlops from the late eighties/early 90`s that lasted long time and often where better when well worn in than a new set
out of allof this we need agreement for change within teh racers and then RAC to mandate the change
THEN every 3 years the re evalutation process can start again with the suppliers and interested new parties to throw their hat into the ring

[kartingdad]

Originally Posted by driftwood

considering the current state of the MP`s and their expenses total transparency should be the point here with regards to circuit rents club hires/running the event an dteh tyer situation

OK i will put my head upon the parapit wall ( or maybe the Guillotine !?) and make this suggestion

I am willing to go forth with the notion of tyre supply/testing as follows

1 I will as a commercial entity propose to find 3 tyre suppliers to put forward a product to be tested and a price to supply them at per unit/ per set
to evaluate the product and then be the distributor to sell to you racers the tyres for you to fit or if i have to attend meeting run a fitting service and yes I will be looking at a profit to be made how else can anyone service the needs of others

2 testing will be done independantly with 4 or 5 cars drivers same day at 3 circuits ie OPark donington/silverstone or brands AND anglesy
3 driver car team combo i am open to suggestion but i would suggest something from these
VD2k type car
VD90-92
reynard 87-90
and a mid 80`s Lola 644 type car or classi 70`s RP26 type car

3 Independant observers can be present at each test maybe you can suggest 2-4 suitable parties who have no team car driver interest ie Diz james B

the object will be to fiond a tyre that can compete within 1 second of teh current Avon product run more than 3 meetings beofre it wears out or lap times fall off dramatically AND be supplied at a sensible price say 290-300 quid plus queens pension contribution

The problem is what do you want
A perfomance at the same level as Avon ACB10
B a cheaper tyre
C tyre that last longer

you will not get aproduct that will do all of the above
COMPROMISE is what you willget on either lap times cost or perfomance
so for example would you be happy with £450 avons that lasted 6 meetings
or 300 avons that where lasting longer but 1 sec lap slower

I can only think of the FFord Dunlops from the late eighties/early 90`s that lasted long time and often where better when well worn in than a new set
out of allof this we need agreement for change within teh racers and then RAC to mandate the change
THEN every 3 years the re evalutation process can start again with the suppliers and interested new parties to throw their hat into the ring

Sounds like an excellent idea, but don't get your fingers burnt!

[Shoestring]

Driftwood.

I also agree it sounds an excellent idea.

I don't think it matters if the tyre was slower, if everyone was on the same tyre what difference does it make. Lap times only matter in relation to what the opposition in a race is doing.

1. The objective either has to be to get longer life out of a similar tyre, therefore better value for money, than the present ACB10.
or
2.A cheaper tyre with the same wear life as the present tyre.

Either way as long as it reduces by a margin a seasons racing costs it would obviously beneficial.

[driftwood]

I am not gobbing off here I have been pro acive today around my other business matters to deal with
spoken with 4 companies so far
Matador are OUT of motorsport tyres now

Yokohama have once offered radial tyre to the tender process and the test pilot advised them that their tyre was not compatible with the FFord chassis and as Yoko make more radials than cross ply ( they are made by hand! ) they do not see mileage in heading into the tyre size in a crossply format due to costs of making moulds and the tyre manufacturing cost so they declined to get involved but are pro active with their slick FFord 2000 /S2000 tyre market

I now await further dialouge from 1 usa company next week after their UK director puts the proposal to the HQ
The other company i approached will call me tomorrow to discuss the matter

I appreciate here is NOT the place to get the general FF1600 racers view because they are not all reading this thread or visit the forum in general
so how can i now get a handle on what the majority of 1600 racers feel?
start a new thread on tyres?
maybe get a poll running via 1010 site?
then ask you to tell yr mates to visit it for feedback?
place advert in race magazine for views?
create website to hear views abuse etc

[Gravel Trap]

Full credit to driftwood for taking positive action on this emotive issue. May I suggest that among the tyre companies he contacts should be Avon in order to communicate the strength of feeling at club level and also offer them the opportunity to comment on their position.

[blue nose]

I spoke to Dunlop last year they still make FF tyres and were a lot cheeper than Avon. Plus they were interested.

[driftwood]

I am leaving avon to last let them stew once i have the other company talking to me in earnest i can kick sand in the faces of melksham employees

what i would like to hear from seasoned campaigners would they like a dunlop type tyre as we had 88-93 era or do they want an avon but not what is provided today
there must be an era where the ACB10 was a decent tyre
m afraid i cant assist much here i only did 6 races in 93 in reynard 89 and VD92

since then ive raced "proper " race cars with slicks and wings

[blue nose]

acb10s were made for Zetecs but were slower than the kents when tested so a deal was struck with the club so that 1600s had to use them for 93.

[SAMD]

ACBs at £300 a set would be ideal. Any other tyre is going to have a learning curve as far as set up goes, which will take time and money. If a new tyre had different dimensions that will involve even more alterations to current setups.

These would be additional costs albeit only in the short term, however, I thought the whole idea of this was to reduce our short/medium term costs.

[driftwood]

you cant have everything hence why i did say there may be a compromise involved

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by driftwood

you cant have everything hence why i did say there may be a compromise involved

Fair enough, - because I do appreciate the commitment you are making.



No pressure!

[bov]

Originally Posted by driftwood

circuit owners are greedy nd race clubs too dumb to realis ethey should cancell bookings run less meetings
i rent property when i cant get a tenant after 3 weeks cos market has changed i drop rent10% and hey bingo bum in seat rent in pocket and i roll on till tenancy expires either renew lease take teh $$ or let again tyr for more money if it fails after 3 weeks drop rent better to have 90% in pocket now than try to get the full monty 6 weeks later!
the sooner clubs realise we are not spending money the fatsret they will realise they are loosing money running these events
i have 6 race cars all sitting in garage no spare money to run them as much as it irritates me i have to be realistic on the costings v income and other outgoings

As i understand it if you rent property or land to someone then it seems a bit cheeky to then let them organise event's etc and then take the gate money! eighther you are renting it or you are not!!!

[driftwood]

that is my view
its like renting out your house but you want to still charge tenant for their friends visiting!

In the old days 1950-60`s the circuit promoted the race paid appearance money to the drivers to be there so folk came to pay to watch them race !!
bigger the field of cars better drivers etc more folk went to watch and many racers managed to earn enough money to cover their racing costs between appearance money start money and prize money in the results

[Asp]

Originally Posted by bov

As i understand it if you rent property or land to someone then it seems a bit cheeky to then let them organise event's etc and then take the gate money! eighther you are renting it or you are not!!!

It's probably phrased that they are hiring the facilities and not the circuit as land. The circuit still has responsibilities, still provide the gate staff, so it's not quite that simple.

It certainly doesn't seem fair, but it's an industry standard now, so there's not much that can be done about it unless people start to vary it!

[FranksWilde]

The trouble is supply and demand.

The circuit manages to "get away with it" because there are championships and clubs lining up to hire the circuit. If the formula fords weren't there someone else would be.

It may be different next year if a few categories/championships dissappear due to the recesion.

Why do you think that the BRSCC doesn't have many dates at Outlon this year?

[driftwood]

Now had some more discussion with a rubber company and some interesting commenst
they are interested in supplying tyres and will do evaluation tests with me
options are crossply and radials both exist

they said crossply heats up quicker than a radial in the early laps

SO i need to hear what the FF|or racers want
I think i am correct in saying so far its been ahand full od BRSCCNW racers commenting on this thread no Coombe ireland scotland Midlans racers have shown their hand


1 do you want to stick with crossply tyres
2 do you want to move to radials |( tyre company would like to go this route)
3 what size of tyre do we want to use
4 pricing perfomance ratios-
A do you want a tyre that is cheaper than avon BUT last the same length of time
B do you want a tyre that is cheaper last longer but maybe be 0.5 second per lap slower
C by how much less per set of tyres do you expect to achieve to warrant any change over

anyone out there know if it is BRSCC thing or RACMSA thing to get the tyre rule changed?

[JohnMiller]

why on earth would anyone consider radials?

[driftwood]

cos someone makes them??
the supplier would prefer to propose them i want to hear the whys/ why nots on it!!

if yr too shy john send me direct mail or call me - Ive missed yr dulcet tone!

[JohnMiller]

It's a great idea. Let's save £50 on radials (which will go up in a year or two anyway) but spend about £5k redeveloping your car to work on them.

Avon provide a solid tyre and a good service.

One of the great things of FF1600 is stability. Start ****ing around with it, and it will lose it's magic.

If there is any "voting" to be done, then only people who actually race at the minute have any valid say surely.

[FFmygale]

Glad to see that you are not too shy John!

[Athgoe Racing]

1. yes
2. no
3. The same
4. A or B

[driftwood]

John i wondered how long it would be before you piped up!
yes i fully agree with the radial concept for a set of tyres and a curry for same price as crossply avon tyres we will have to re jig suspension do some testing etc
It was exactly the same argument i put to the technician
however 1 the saving is more than you suggest 2 radials are a modern tyre and the direction most tyre people are working towards
3 If i did NOT offer the 2 choices what you would you say later if i kept it from you

with regards to a voting sytem i think yr right we would need to ask every track/club running fford races to put it to the drivers who signed on at a FFord meeting this year i hope you manage to qualify!

As i have said many post back i want to do a proper test with 3/4 driver car combos form different era/series at a couple of tracks around the country to get a proper feed back
you would not be happy with 2 runs in 1 car at Mallory as the basis to change
also what saving would folk want to see per set £75 and they last 6 meetings not 3 50 or 150 and they last same as avons at 3 meetings?
where do we draw the line?

i see we have 1 person give a view and he was not in england so lets see some more views
im not interested in a slanging match i want some views or constructive views and opinions
so karting dad Ffmygale lets have yr views
if in the end the consensus is you will stick with what you have and take it as it is then fine
BUT if it is time for a change of supplier then i will proceed with further discussions and look at some tests

[kartingdad]

As John says there would have to be a LOT of motivation to move tyre supplier.

Avon (well in my experience BMTRS do a very good job of looking after the FF1600, so any new supplier would need to measure up to them. (Of course BMTRS might like to supply the new tyres anyway.)

I'm not up to speed on the handling differences between radials and crossplies, but testing should show any differences. If the change isn't to radical, then can't see the problem, after all drivers manage to drive in conditions from full dry to full wet on the Avons.

I think the size should be identical to Avons as nobody is going to want to faff about with alternative gear ratios.

I would prefer the longevity to be the same as the Avons, but with a significant cost reduction.

Problem is, the boys that use 1 set of tyres per season will see no advantage to them and will be reluctant to vote for a change. Look at the problem we had allowing steel cranks.

As I understand it the BRSCC make the rules, and if it isn't their idea (and a cost benefit to them) it isn't likely to happen. The notion that it might help secure grid numbers is unlikely to be a great concern given the level of their entry fees.