Is the North West Formula Ford Championship staying at its home circuit Oulton Park.

[Walshy]

That would be great Chris, but the circuit would have to recognise your club. The BRSCC have been going there since the year dot, yet they have lost race dates. If they can't get their quota, what makes you think a new club is gonna get a share of the pie?.

The only way in would be to offer more money to MSV for the use of Oulton, but that would be defeating the object as we want to bring entry fees down.

Besides which, the point has already been made. The BRSCC practically have rights to FF1600. The only way to do it would be to set it up under another name, but you still have to get your club accepted by the circuits and if you pulled away from the BRSCC, why would they let you race on one of their given race days????????

As I've said previously, people are messing and meddling too much. The drivers enjoy what we have. The officials enjoy what we have. And the few that come to watch appear to enjoy what they see. Why make sweeping changes.

[heel'n'toe-no]

I'm in

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Walshy

The BRSCC practically have rights to FF1600. The only way to do it would be to set it up under another name

Ford own the rights.

FF1600 circuit racing Championships are run in the UK by the BRSCC, BARC and HSCC. BRDC too run official FF1600 events.

In addition, the MRC has had a FF1600 class before now and the SMRC also rana championship for years. I'm sure there have been many other organising clubs historically like BHRC...

[StephenRae]

I don't think a new club is necessary...it's not long ago that one of our championship rounds was run on a BARC day. Perhaps the BRSCC are being protective of 'their' championship, after all they gain nothing from sharing it.
The Croft club have welcomed us, I would expect other clubs to do the same, the BRSCC shouldn't feel alienated as they would be losing nothing.

[Walshy]

I know Steve, but lets say.

We go to Anglesey and race under a generic club up there. Then we got to Croft and race under the DDMC and we do a round or two at Oulton under BARC. The BRSCC aren't making any money out of those meetings, so you can see why.

All I have ever said is that the BRSCC needs a little more fight against the circuits, especially MSV. They have been losing dates year on year and as the bill payers, they should have certain conditions of their own instead of just paying what's asked. I still can't beleive they don't get the gate receipt even though they have paid for the circuit on a given day. Can never work that one out. At least if they got the gate, it would give them an incentive to promote the meetings.

[StephenRae]

Chris...the championship rounds at Anglesey are run by the BRSCC...my concern is that by setting ourselves up in competition with other clubs we would alienate all of them. None of us has any real interest in organising anything (Diz excepted) all we really want is more race dates at Oulton Park.
I think our interests would be best served by latching on to any and all clubs who can be persuaded that we are financially viable.

[blue nose]

Good Idea Steve which clubs can we persuade to let us in on their race day.

[Walshy]

I'm not disagreeing with anyone, but just looking at this objectively.

We don't want to alienate ourselves and apart from the lack of race dates at Oulton, I have to admit that the BRSCC have pulled there socks up of late. All the rounds with the exception of the first have been on the International circuit and race fees seemed to have levelled out, even though they haven't decreased.

Grass is always greener etc........

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Walshy

I know Steve, but lets say.

We go to Anglesey and race under a generic club up there. Then we got to Croft and race under the DDMC and we do a round or two at Oulton under BARC. The BRSCC aren't making any money out of those meetings, so you can see why.

You're assuming far too much.

BRSCC approaches DDMC and agrees to buy a race grid for £3,000. If they then get 25 entries @ £175 they have made a tidy profit.

We regularly(ish) have SoM meetings on other clubs meetings.

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

You're assuming far too much.

BRSCC approaches DDMC and agrees to buy a race grid for £3,000. If they then get 25 entries @ £175 they have made a tidy profit.

We regularly(ish) have SoM meetings on other clubs meetings.

Same as the old COB before the SFFC. COB ran at nearly all Brands meetings BRSCC, BARC, MGOC etc etc

[Ian Sowman]

A few random observations from Ireland...

First, if diz left NWFF to its own devices it would die on its backside far faster than if he tried to 'meddle' with it, as you may perceive it, by trying to take it to other circuits or whatever.

I'm not convinced that the Murphys are a good example of drivers the championship would lose if it went to different circuits. Dave and Natalie have done a heck of a lot of 'extra' races this season in SoM and also the NI championship rounds. They don't have a huge budget, and they fully epitomise the traditional club racer - far more than a lot of NWFF regulars, with no disrespect intended to anyone.

Third, you will probably only get a grid on a BARC bill if BRSCC get a BARC race in return (and so on). Another thing to consider is that each club will have a primary duty to its own championships and series, and generally speaking most race meetings are content-laden already.

[blue nose]

Diz still has 50 years left at being a NWco-ordinater

We must be able to have more slots at Oulton,I would like more at Anglesey as its more of a holiday.
There are lots of places to race all over the country but not many of us go because what we have is great so why travel.

[greenboy]

Good on you Blue Nose.I have worked out that this season between BRSCC,BARC and the odd CSCC meeting there were approximately 15 visits to Oulton.For a local Championship there must be some opportunities to join in somewhere if you are providing a guaranteed pay cheque for £7000-00p to these clubs, to improve the number of visits to say eight for the NWfford.Add two doubles at Angelsey and we are "cooking with gas".The BRSCC should fight our corner to keep us!

[blue nose]

Cool ...could we find out who the club co-ordinarors are and see if they want are money Dave.

[jimbomit]

For what it's worth I'm going to throw my oar into this one!

I have to say I'm with Diz on this one.

Based on the fact I've only been around racing for 5 or so years I'm willing to don my hat to Diz as someone who has foregotten more than most of us know, however I'm not sure if the point I think he's trying to make was explained.

As I interpret it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but if it was as easy as "let's go and get 17 races at OP in 2006" then we'd do that, however the facts seem to be it's not. The number of days available to any club are reducing as the circuits have other bigger money spinners to satisfy their shareholders with (e.g corporate and track days). Club racing is not as important to them as it used to be, face it we need them more than they need us.

Add to that more people coming into racing and you have a problem, lot of demand, limited resource.

So if you want to race a full season you have to be flexible, Diz is trying to strike a balance here that I think may have been missed.

When the other clubs (BARC etc) can fill their own schedules why let a BRSCC meeting have one (or NWFF new club etc etc)???? There will be only a few slots available at Oulton and we have to accept that we won't get the lions share. So how do you fill a year??? Go where they will have us, go where we know people are close to, SPREAD OUR WINGS!!!!

From Manchester I'm an hour from Oulton, 2.5hrs to Anglesey, 2.5 to Croft, 2hrs to Donnington / Mallory It's not that bad!!!

Sure MSV haven't had much luck in getting big grids to their rounds but when you spread it out between Brands, Silverstone, Donnington, Snet, Lyden, Mongolia etc etc the distance really does become a problem!!!

So we get slightly smaller grids at the away days. . . AND??? Who's going to say Anglesey this year was a flop??? This year it's three weekends away from home and because they are double headers it's a good fun filled time and cost wise it's not that much more. I mean how many of us actually do buy a new set of tyres each round?? Far fewer than some would lead you to believe!! Testing?? Sure when you're new to a circuit it's of huge importance, but then once you've visited it a few times and you'll be into the swing very quickly without testing.

Extend the weekends away to four or five, spread out around the "Northern" circuits in a series where you can nominate rounds to count and everyone will get a race close to them, you can duck out of the real far away ones and still do a full season. In fariness it's only Diz who gets a bum deal, he'll need to be at all 17 odd rounds!!!

And yes Combe can have their own club and do their own thing, it's their own circuit, Oulton belongs to Dr Palmer (I'm sure there's a double entendre in their somewhere!) and a lot of people want to visit!

As to a series of all Oulton. . . sorry not for me. I love the track but veriety is the spice of life even if I have to miss a round or two to save up!

If you want a CoO do it like CoB and have it as a mini series within a Northern championship!!

The lessons of the past are for all to see, have too many far away rounds (MSV) and it's hard for people to follow unless you have a serious budget, take a series that works well from a base and spread it too thinly (SoM) and people can't keep up, make it based at one circuit with a good choice of 'support' races and you can satisfy most of the people, most of the time and that IS what it's about........going to bed now head hurts!!!

[jimbomit]

Originally Posted by diz

The feeling in the Diz mind at present is veering towards "they can shove it up their bottoms from 2006"
Would I miss it? Probably not as much as I would expect to miss it, so look forward to 2006 folks and enjoy whatever comes your way.
At least I can stay here on TT and listen to you all bleating and going off half cock about a subject you know a far lower %age about than you think you all do.

Diz you may not miss the but could you really give up the cakes???

[blue nose]

The moment we dont have enough Oulton rounds the series will be finished but I would still do the Star of Anglesey.

You need new rubber for every round and a few of us do.

But still we will have to wait and see what the BRSCC offers us for next year as we are their cash cow, but we do seem to be getting fewer slots every year.

If Cadwel and Croft were so good why dont they have a home race series,Oulton has a long history of FF1600 and it should be kept that way....shame on the circuit if we get less slots next year.

[heel'n'toe-no]

I think deep down everyone knows Diz is doing a grand job. I think a lot of this on here is just a little bit of fear of change, fear of additional expense and a large slice of WINDING DIZ up.

Well I'm not going to wind Diz up! but as someone who has travelled from England to Northern Ireland to race for the last 2 years I can say beyond a shaddow of doubt that yes the additional costs are a factor, however, what are we realiostically looking at........4 meetings at different tracks other than Oulton and Anglesey.

I would be devistated if the NWFF'ds were to change too much from what I have been involved in this and last season behind the camera. As Chris knows I have invested a lot in to racing in the championship next year, and with this talk on here I am seriously considering continuing in the Northern Ireland championship, even with the additional expense. Will there be some sort of meeting with all the drivers looking to compete in the NWFF'ds next year, if so, who is arranging it and can they post informing where and when the meeting is to be held.

2006 sounds a long way away but at my age it soon crops up and I need to make plans otherwise before team seats are filled elsewhere.

[jimbomit]

Originally Posted by blue nose

The moment we dont have enough Oulton rounds the series will be finished but I would still do the Star of Anglesey.

You need new rubber for every round and a few of us do.

But still we will have to wait and see what the BRSCC offers us for next year as we are their cash cow, but we do seem to be getting fewer slots every year.

If Cadwel and Croft were so good why dont they have a home race series,Oulton has a long history of FF1600 and it should be kept that way....shame on the circuit if we get less slots next year.

I was talking from the view of the common masses, I'm sure we'd all like to be racing with new boots each race but the reality is that most of the competitors will have one, two maybe three sets a year max And yes by and large we aren't at the pointy end but then not everyone can be and a series is there for all its competitors, there's fun to be had from the front to the back, it's why we do it!!

I would disagree with us being a cash cow. On the race meetings we participate in, we do provide a good healthy income for the BRSCC, but compare that to events like the Touring cars or F3 and we are zip. We are not their bread and butter, check their annual accounts (if you have trouble sleeping) and you'll see what I mean, they are not a great business. Whether that's down to poor cost control or the bare fact that racing is not very profitable I don't know but as a series we only contribute about £60k of income annually. Not a whole lot really!

I agree with the sentiment that we should have a bigger say but my impression is that racing is changing and we have to be willing to accept some change. Oulton Park will not offer that many slots to club races, it's not in its interest to. It makes more money from its own schemes and hiring to the major events. . . .that and if Dr P wanted to control all the income from events on his circuits he'd have to find some way of enticing us wouldn't he?

Spend a few years constricting availability, hiking up the prices and wait for people to get fed up with the middle man clubs, they start going pop or have to race out of the 'less glamorous' circuits, then all of a sudden, introduce your own series at the great circuits like Oulton, Brands, Cadwell, Snet. . . I hate to be sounding too gloomy but I really do think this will happen. Dr P is a business man first, racer second. Why would he let clubs take some of the earnings he could keep for himself? He won't it's why MSV was set up.

. . . . I really am going to sleep now!!!!

[diz]

Originally Posted by heel'n'toe-no

Will there be some sort of meeting with all the drivers looking to compete in the NWFF'ds next year, if so, who is arranging it and can they post informing where and when the meeting is to be held.

What's the point of holding a meeting? Been there, tried that and it just degenerates into a free for all with everyone just trying to get "their own way". A bit like this thread in fact

For whoever does arrange a meeting, a spot of advice. Don't book too big a room. Expect a poor turnout and you won't be disappointed.

[Walshy]

Originally Posted by jimbomit

I was talking from the view of the common masses, I'm sure we'd all like to be racing with new boots each race but the reality is that most of the competitors will have one, two maybe three sets a year max And yes by and large we aren't at the pointy end but then not everyone can be and a series is there for all its competitors, there's fun to be had from the front to the back, it's why we do it!!

I would disagree with us being a cash cow. On the race meetings we participate in, we do provide a good healthy income for the BRSCC, but compare that to events like the Touring cars or F3 and we are zip. We are not their bread and butter, check their annual accounts (if you have trouble sleeping) and you'll see what I mean, they are not a great business. Whether that's down to poor cost control or the bare fact that racing is not very profitable I don't know but as a series we only contribute about £60k of income annually. Not a whole lot really!

I agree with the sentiment that we should have a bigger say but my impression is that racing is changing and we have to be willing to accept some change. Oulton Park will not offer that many slots to club races, it's not in its interest to. It makes more money from its own schemes and hiring to the major events. . . .that and if Dr P wanted to control all the income from events on his circuits he'd have to find some way of enticing us wouldn't he?

Spend a few years constricting availability, hiking up the prices and wait for people to get fed up with the middle man clubs, they start going pop or have to race out of the 'less glamorous' circuits, then all of a sudden, introduce your own series at the great circuits like Oulton, Brands, Cadwell, Snet. . . I hate to be sounding too gloomy but I really do think this will happen. Dr P is a business man first, racer second. Why would he let clubs take some of the earnings he could keep for himself? He won't it's why MSV was set up.

. . . . I really am going to sleep now!!!!

Mr Jim.

Sounds very similar to something I said earlier in this Thread.

Change can be good and should happen, but not in huge chunks as to upset the balance. Things can't and never do stay the same.

[Walshy]

Originally Posted by diz

What's the point of holding a meeting? Been there, tried that and it just degenerates into a free for all with everyone just trying to get "their own way". A bit like this thread in fact

For whoever does arrange a meeting, a spot of advice. Don't book too big a room. Expect a poor turnout and you won't be disappointed.

I was there too.

Couldn't agree more Mr Diz. That's the problem with something like this Forum sometimes. Too much hot air and I am guilty of it too.

Don't believe the hype......................

[greenboy]

Diz,we might just as well give up now because you certainly have.Without you the Championship is finished,having made a decision before we have even pushed our point with the BRSCC.We are discussing a situation of dates which are never finalised till the end of January which is over four months away ,maybe the BRSCC might see Oulton as "there pearl in the oyster" because I feel sure there books will show that,particularly if they know how keen we are maintain our NW championship.I respect all the other views about trying other circuits but we all can if we want to, as many drivers have by visiting other championships and main events i.e.Walter Heyes.Please dont give up now but try on our behalf and if it doesn't work so be it, we can then decide what to do next season as individuals.

[StephenRae]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Good on you Blue Nose.I have worked out that this season between BRSCC,BARC and the odd CSCC meeting there were approximately 15 visits to Oulton.For a local Championship there must be some opportunities to join in somewhere if you are providing a guaranteed pay cheque for £7000-00p to these clubs, to improve the number of visits to say eight for the NWfford.Add two doubles at Angelsey and we are "cooking with gas".The BRSCC should fight our corner to keep us!

If we had MSV on our side then all they would have to do would be to instruct the other organisers to put on a CoO race. To do this we would have to persuade them that we would bring in more paying customers. I don't know how we would do this or whether or not a CoO race would attract more punters, perhaps MSV could be persuaded to try it for a year.
One thing is for sure, if an approach is made to MSV we must be ready to make our case in a very diplomatic fashion if we are not to upset all of the organising clubs.

[PaulSands]

Given that Combe has set up its own club and Brands is doing likewise is it not inevitable that the Brands one will expand to be an MSV one?