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Old 14 Jan 2007, 01:32 (Ref:1814627)   #1
chernaudi
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Audi R9 questions.

As the title implies, I have a few questions about the still born Audi R9 project from 2003-04. First of all, what was it? There probably is no clear cut answer, but what was it more likely to be: A new build, LMP1 hybrid version of the R8, or a variant of the R10 that used the R8's powertrain(the true answer may never be known)?

I feel that it may've been a LMP1 hybrid version of the R8, as the R10 started to show design promise by the time that Audi would've had the R9 ready(late '04). It also may've been a car that used some of the R10's parts(mainly tub), as Audi would've made many modifcations to the R8 to make it a LMP1 hybrid. Mulsanne Mike's site makes refernce to it(News section, Sept. '03), but no details were ever released. And did anyone hear of it? All that I've heard other than that is that one was built, and then scrapped(which may give some cedance to it being an LMP1 Hybrid, or possibly used what would become the R10's tub). And that's all I know about it. Hope that I don't waste anyone's time.

Last edited by chernaudi; 14 Jan 2007 at 01:35.
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Old 14 Jan 2007, 13:52 (Ref:1814853)   #2
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The R10 tub was designed to have the V12 diesel fitted to it, and therfore fitting the V8 of the R8 would seem am improbable task. Not impossible but pointless.
The secret to a quick car is good intergration between the engine and chassis departments, both making comprimises which give the best solution to any problems the other may have, Fitting a 5 years old V8 to a tub designed specifically for a brand new V12.
I believe that it may have been developed as a sucessor to the R8 but would've been petrol powered, then a bright spark in the marketing department said "why dont we make a diesel" and then wispered "maybe we could use our influence to get the ACO to give us favourable rules" (sorry) and the R9 project was shelved.
No real facts here, just informed oppinion.
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Old 14 Jan 2007, 15:54 (Ref:1814940)   #3
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It may have been an internal development mule intended to test out ideas for the R10 and evaluate some options and never intended as a race car. R9 would seem a logical name for it if you have moved on from R8...

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Old 14 Jan 2007, 17:12 (Ref:1815005)   #4
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Were there any significant rule changes around that time? I think that is where you would need to look to find the answer.

When did the ACO decrease the rear wing element width? Memory eludes me.. They might have designed a new chassis expecting an aerodynamic lift imbalance under the new regulations but gave up for one other reason (maybe the conversation that paved the way for diesel at LeMans). Only speculation, sorry
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Old 14 Jan 2007, 17:43 (Ref:1815028)   #5
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The current LMP chassis rules were released in february 2003 and the diesel rules later that year.

The rear wing width was decreased in 2004 for old rules cars (except alms).
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Old 14 Jan 2007, 19:55 (Ref:1815148)   #6
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I've personally never heard any acknowledgement that the "R9" was a LMP sportscar other than in the Autosport article. In fact, I've heard the R9 was the DTM car.
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Old 14 Jan 2007, 19:58 (Ref:1815152)   #7
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There was no R9 and no "still born" R9 project. The designation was never used, for other corporate reasons.

Here is what is on the record in regard to this topic:

The idea to develop a diesel sports car for the 24 Hours of Le Mans had already emerged in 2002 with the internal project name R10. The Le Mans V12 TDI ran for the first time on the test bed in July 2005.
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Old 14 Jan 2007, 20:48 (Ref:1815192)   #8
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R9 is the code name for the Audi A4 DTM car.

This was mentioned in an interview with the DTM car's designer in Autosport a few years back.
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Old 14 Jan 2007, 20:54 (Ref:1815196)   #9
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Originally Posted by MulsanneMike
I've personally never heard any acknowledgement that the "R9" was a LMP sportscar other than in the Autosport article. In fact, I've heard the R9 was the DTM car.
You are correct. The 2006 Audi DTM car is the R12. So I think the 2005 Audi DTM car is the R9 or R11.

Somewere on this forum there's a list with these code names. Unfortunaly I could not find it.
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Old 14 Jan 2007, 21:33 (Ref:1815227)   #10
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Yeah, I saw all your searches! Here is one post (I tried "Audi DTM R9"). http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...r9#post1167859
and another
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...r9#post1256962
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Old 14 Jan 2007, 21:46 (Ref:1815238)   #11
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In Racer Magazine(from June or July 2004) reported that the "R9" as it was refered to by many at the time, was built in early 2004, but was scrapped when the design of the R10's engine was finalized. It now seems to me that it was probably more a testbed(and possibly a halfway house between the R8 and R10) than anything else. If only photos and detailed info exhisted about this stillborn/test bed prototype, but Audi AG isn't forecoming with this(at least until they retire the R10). Some have(due to the R10 using areo/styling cues from the Audi R8 and Bentley Speed 8, as well as an adaption of the latter cars's torsion bar suspension) even called the Bentley Speed 8 the "Audi R9".

So it seems that Audi called off the program(also sited in that article) due to the fact that the R8 was still competitive, and it made little sense to build a car that they'd only run(as a factory effort) for only a couple of years.
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Old 14 Jan 2007, 22:14 (Ref:1815257)   #12
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Originally Posted by chernaudi
In Racer Magazine(from June or July 2004) reported that the "R9" as it was refered to by many at the time, was built in early 2004, but was scrapped when the design of the R10's engine was finalized.
Presumably only people outside Audi?
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...called the Bentley Speed 8 the "Audi R9".
Isn't that just people taking the Michael due to the relationship between Audi and Bentley. There is a comment to this on the R8 Wikipedia page; that probably needs clarifying.
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So it seems that Audi called off the program(also sited in that article) due to the fact that the R8 was still competitive, and it made little sense to build a car that they'd only run(as a factory effort) for only a couple of years.
Which is the interesting part (and the point of the thread!) - how far did Audi go with a replacement of the R8?
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Old 14 Jan 2007, 22:51 (Ref:1815286)   #13
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Originally Posted by chernaudi
Some have(due to the R10 using areo/styling cues from the Audi R8 and Bentley Speed 8, as well as an adaption of the latter cars's torsion bar suspension) even called the Bentley Speed 8 the "Audi R9".
Oh not this drivel again...I want to know who these "Some" are. I've certainly never heard that and I can put money on that Elleray hasn't either. Wikipedia gone wrong.
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Old 15 Jan 2007, 00:27 (Ref:1815355)   #14
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To clarify...I believe that Mike is right...I should have said that the R9 was never used to refer to a sports car project.

The idea that there was an interum program to develop a sportscar between the R8 and the R10 that was scrapped is the fantasy of outside speculation, as far as I know.

Such project designations are assigned early in a project's life. A DTM project that fields a car for the 2005 season can easily be initiated before an engine project (and subsequent car) for the 2006 season. Thus, the R10 being assigned in 2002 is entirely logical.
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Old 15 Jan 2007, 02:26 (Ref:1815416)   #15
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It really seems like so many people think car/chassis numbers have to follow a coherent linear path to come up with names. Only place I ever saw anyone offline refer to the R9 was when rumors first appeared about an Audi street supercar and was just used because it would follow the R8 racer technology and thus was a logical progression.
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Old 15 Jan 2007, 06:26 (Ref:1815484)   #16
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What I'm trying to say it that Wolfgang Ullrich threw fat in to a fire when he stated that there may be a car between the R8 and R10, an that Audi Sport was considering such a proposition. The fact that there's not really much more evidence than that(and Dr. Ullrich said that such a car had been built nearly to completion) doesn't help. I can maybe come up with some concepts of what the car may've looked like, but your guess is a good as mine.

And as for the car itself, its fate has never been satisfactorily determined. It may've been scrapped, or(just like what has been said of the Porsche LMP from '99-'00), been placed under highly secretive lock and key in the head Audi Sport facility. Remember the TOM's Toyota LMP. At RTN(Racing Technology Norfolk-formerly TOM's), the car's body work is still hung up on a wall. So Audi/VAG and Porsche my have a thing for hiding their never completed or never raced cars.
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Old 15 Jan 2007, 18:24 (Ref:1815868)   #17
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Yeah, I saw all your searches! Here is one post (I tried "Audi DTM R9").
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This is the list I was looking for. Thanks.
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Old 15 Jan 2007, 20:42 (Ref:1815964)   #18
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I wonder hwat happens to prototype sportscar testbeds anyways. Audi built at least 1 R10 to be used mostly as a testbed(I guess that that proposition said bye-bye back in June, as it won Le Mans). And they're supposidly building 3 more cars for this ALMS season(one probably a tester/LM car). Maybe history repeats itself.

Audi also did the same thing with the R8-build about 3 of them, race 2 full time, and use one mainly as a tester/3rd car for LM. I think that they're either scrapped(those that never race), sold off to private teams(used car with some race laps), or safely tucked away(cars that never see the light of day, but might be useful at a later date, for those conspiracy theorist out there,LOL!).

Well probably never know all there is to be know about any LM type sportscar, let alone Audi's actual race cars(R8 and R10), so do you think that Audi would be willing to give detailed info on a test/concept car that's never been showed to the public?
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Old 15 Jan 2007, 23:29 (Ref:1816108)   #19
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Oh not this drivel again...I want to know who these "Some" are. I've certainly never heard that and I can put money on that Elleray hasn't either. Wikipedia gone wrong.
Right, this will amuse you....

When the car that you all know as the Audi R8c was designed at rtn in 1998/99, it was given the project number 'R9' internally, for the simple reason that the open car then being tested by Audi Sport was to be known as the R8... Infact all the R8c drawings, which are still stored on rtn's server, are prefixed R9.. Now, when the car actually sat on its wheels for the first time, somebody in Ingolstadt didnt like the idea of having an R8 and an R9, because the corprorate line was that the two cars were closely linked - which indeed they were from the chassis back, but perhaps not too much from the bulkheead forwards - so the R8 became the R8R and the 'R9' became the R8C. Then, when the coupe was dropped by audi, and a totally new car developed for VW/Bentley that became the exp8, the R8R quietly became the R8 once again..

So, those mischievous individuals who might be tempted to imply that the Bentley exp8 was infact designed by Audi and give it the title R9 with a nod and a wink are actually three cars out in the rtn lineage - R8c (the origional R9), VW, Bentley exp8 mk.1 and exp8 mk2 (the winner in 2003).

All of 'em were designed in Norfolk (engine excepted) ,and none of them fits into Audi's internal design numbering system, not even the R8c!

And i wouldnt be surprised if everyone in Ingolstadt has rather forgotten about the first R9 - no i dont know which project the second one was either.

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Old 15 Jan 2007, 23:33 (Ref:1816111)   #20
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The mid engined Audi group S rally car was tested briefly in secrecy in mid 80s and it wasn't seen for years until it appeared in museum.
We might see something in 2020 or we might not
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