Stoner, Rossi and the "Crap" Ducati

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by chunder

THe question you have to ask is would Casey have been able to run the M1 around in 2004? Would he know what the best configuration of those 4 engine specs was? Would he, knowing he had no top speed advantage, make the bike be able to go flat through one bend and sacrifice the rest of the lap to gain an advantage over everyone there? Coz that's the kind of thing Vale did at Yamaha.

For me Vale is the best, not coz he is the quickest though for 10 years he was, but because he was the cleverest.

And for the record I don't bracket the current guys with Rainey, Lawson, Schwantz and Doohan, those guys were different league riding much harder to ride bikes on crap tyres, no electronics, unsafe tracks and firecraker power bands!!

Ah, but there in lies the true question, could Vale have done all that without JB and co?

and yes for sure, its a different era, different times. bike riders always leave me in awe at the sheer balls of what they do.

i think everyone agrees its going to be a very interesting season!

[chunder]

Regarding the Jb element, well you have Willing with Roberts at Suzuki, Kanemoto with Spencer, Carruthers with Lawson and Roberts, Vukmanoich with Honda.

These were all iconic linkups and I dont think they really do anything amazing, it is just they are able to communicate in way that each understands implicitly.

Whether Rossi could have got the same results without Jerry I am not sure. If not Jerry would have stayed at Honda, or mayeb even retired sop I think the working relationships is totally mutual, Jerry surely doesnt need to work he just enjoys the challenge and I bet is relishing making this bike work.

And Valentino was quick on Aprilia's well before Burgess, same as Max. I would credit Lawson with a lot here, he did it at Yamaha after losing in 85 and 87 and then moved to Honda, with Kanemoto battered that NSR into shape and finally at Cagiva with new people again Fanali I think made that bike work.

Eddie for me is the best rider thre has ever been at making a bike work mto it's best ability. A total legend and he never gets thge credit as he was so boring to watch!!

[jhansen]

Let's just all admit right now that there isn't a rider on the grid that can do it all on their own. Every rider has "their" people. Even Stoner brought some guys with him to Repsol. If they don’t bring them with them, then they form newer better relationships when they change teams. Having a good engineer, or a good team manager, is just part of the package. This can’t be disputed as far as I’m concerned.

Stoner was quick on the LCR Honda in 2006 and put it on pole at Qatar and led a good chunk of the race. I just watched that race last week and he was very disappointed and shaking his head when he finished that race in 5th. He has high expectations and is hard on himself. His main criticism that year was he claimed Honda and Michelin didn't listen to him. Let's just assume this is correct for the sake of discussion.

When Stoner moved to Ducati one of the first things he said was it felt like a family and they listened to his input. That goes a long way to tuning the rider’s head as they would say. And maybe that was Supo. The 2007 bike was special in that Ducati got more of the 800cc formula right than wrong. I still argue that the bike was very good in 2008 and 2009, but a few things went wrong. It was only in 2010 that Ducati messed up the front end in an effort to improve the back. Prior to 2010 you didn’t hear Stoner repeatedly saying he didn’t trust the front. I think chunder is right to say that Stoner probably pushed too far to turn a 3rd place into a win. But that isn’t his style. It will be interesting to watch this year and see if he can settle for a lower place when the bike isn’t right (if that even happens).

It’s pointless to ponder what Stoner would have done on Rossi’s past equipment. We’ll never know. So at this moment it is most interesting to see what Rossi can do on Stoner’s past equipment. No doubt the fact that Rossi can’t ride Stoner’s bike is fascinating. David Emmett even wrote that Rossi reverted to Stoner’s settings at the last test in Qatar. So yes, he’s riding Stoner’s bike. Rossi said you ride the Ducati more like a 500. But I can’t see this honestly. While the 500’s were brutal, they were vicious in a different way. If Rossi’s shoulder was at 100% he’d be closer to where Stoner was on the Duc. But I just don’t believe we’d see that breathtaking pace that Stoner would show on it. Then again, that never has been Rossi’s style. But if he were healthy he’d be closer to the podium puzzle and would have a better shot at figuring out how to win on the bike.

[chunder]

I thknk realistically Casey knows he doesnt have to push the Honda anywhere near as hard.

Watching the footage form Sunday you can see he is on the edge, but nowhere near the hanging it out style as on the Duke.

If anything Dani was looking more extreme, but I think we can now assume that is because he was over compensating for the arm pump thing.

J is right, Vale never shows his hand fully until race day, he will try and get front row and push 100% for that, but the rest of the runing on the bike is all about sorting issues, tyres and making the bike amazing in a few places to give him an edge.

I dont think Stoner thinkas about it as much, he is more prepared to rag it and sit at that edge all day, in my eyes making him the quicker rider, but not necessarily the best!

Very similar to Lawson/Gardner actually.

[GORDON STREETER]

In view of whats happening (especially after today's qualifying) do you think Rossi can bounce back this year ?

[mac]

Originally Posted by chunder

I dont think Stoner thinkas about it as much, he is more prepared to rag it and sit at that edge all day, in my eyes making him the quicker rider, but not necessarily the best!

I once saw an interview with Chris V where he was asked who the bravest rider out there is... He said (and I'm paraphrasing) that the risks Casey took were insane - if you followed him around in practice you would just be in awe at some of the things he would do.

[Schummy]

This Sunday Vale lost again the bike, and this time bowling Stoner out in the process.

If he doesn't control that front wheel soon, he is going to become a grumpy old champion all the season. Perhaps he must ask his friend Casey how ride around that problem...

[Hazza]

Barry Sheen always said "In order to be fast you have to slow down."

I'm wondering whether Stoner is finally learning that this year. If he gets in the Mick Doohan head space and works out that he's the quickest guy on the quickest bike and he just takes it easy this could become a very boring year.

Can Rossi turn it around? It depends how much magic Burgess can pull on that Ducati, whether or not the problems are so fundamental that they can't be fixed. I think that we're seeing that Rossi's best years are behind him now, unfortunately.

[chunder]

Interesting point Hazz. I think the basic fundamental design of the Duke is wrong for Valentino put simply. He can't ride it like Stoner, he is trying, and they are trying to make it easier. He can ride it, but not like Casey could.

Stoner has admitted he has had to change his style radically on the Honda. He doesn't need to rag it, ride it aggressively as he rode the Duke.

That fact in itself should not be underestimated when you hear Elias crew talking about how Toni wants the bike set up! Adjust your riding to the bike son, not the other way round, to a point.

Casey is up there with the best, and for those who don't believe it imagine the precedent if he wins it this year. Only Valentino, Lawson and Ago have won on different bikes in the modern era.

For Vale and for that matter Yamaha, I think they are making do. Ducati might try and change the bike, but why would you with a new bike coming. Far better to use the 2011 machine to develop new bits for the 2012 1000cc bike? It's clearly not a good bike, I point you to about lap 15 and all four leased Dukes faffing about together on track? How many times did you see similar last year?

I actually think the Suzuki is a good bime this year too, just very unlucky for Alvaro.

It's whether Ducati can take the pressure of Valentino being perhaps podium only chances or whether someone can make the bold step of concentrating on 2012. I imagine Vale holds more sway in that team than anyone else!!

[jhansen]

I don't think the way Stoner rode the Duc was a style thing, but more of necessity. He had to push it all the time very hard. If he backed off then the front tire lost heat and performance, and chances were he'd be on the ground. Now that he's on the Honda, he's finding out what it's like to be able to manage his pace. His opponents should be rightly worried.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by mac

I once saw an interview with Chris V where he was asked who the bravest rider out there is... He said (and I'm paraphrasing) that the risks Casey took were insane - if you followed him around in practice you would just be in awe at some of the things he would do.

Colin Edwards also said, "We look at the setup and the bikes are exactly the same, but Casey is just Casey and nobody can get anywhere near him!"

Rossi's apology looked like about the most insincere effort ever made.
Looked more like an act of provocation than an apology to me.

[chunder]

I think that is a bit unfair.

I very much doubt Vale intended to take Stoner off, he was looking at a very good result.

And I think it is unfair to believe that Vale would not want to apologise. He is that kind of guy. He races about as clkose to the edge of fairness at times, but only with certain people like Casey and Jorge.

He used to race pretty fair with the likes of Biaggi, Loris, Barros.

I think his apology was genuine and meant to be, but what Casey said was fair too. Why do it in front of the cameras. Valentino the honest man, the fair man, the apologetic man. Wait for later, come and do it when we can just be ourselves.

Fair point also, but Vale is a master of the camera as we all know!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chunder

I think that is a bit unfair.

I very much doubt Vale intended to take Stoner off, he was looking at a very good result.

And I think it is unfair to believe that Vale would not want to apologise. He is that kind of guy. He races about as clkose to the edge of fairness at times, but only with certain people like Casey and Jorge.

He used to race pretty fair with the likes of Biaggi, Loris, Barros.

I think his apology was genuine and meant to be, but what Casey said was fair too. Why do it in front of the cameras. Valentino the honest man, the fair man, the apologetic man. Wait for later, come and do it when we can just be ourselves.

Fair point also, but Vale is a master of the camera as we all know!

The pass was just plain never on at that point. Rosi came from miles back and messed it up badly.

"I think his apology was genuine and meant to be, but what Casey said was fair too. Why do it in front of the cameras. Valentino the honest man, the fair man, the apologetic man. Wait for later, come and do it when we can just be ourselves.

Fair point also, but Vale is a master of the camera as we all know!"

This is exactly my point, it was a deliberate act of provocation stunted before the cameras in the hope that Stoner who had been clearly wronged would act up and do something stupid, and not an apology!

Can't believe that Honda let him walk through their garage!

[chunder]

Am not sure what Vale did was deliberately provocative. If that were the case he would have been more aggressive or deliberate.

I thnk mhe genuinely wanted to apologise to Casey, but maybe wanted to make sure everyone saw him trying to!

I also think he made a simple mistake in trying to pass, he was in front when he lost the front which to me says he went in far too quick and Casey said he left room anyway!

He just lost the front, which as we all know is hardly difficult on a Ducati these days! Is it Casey?

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by wnut

The pass was just plain never on at that point. Rosi came from miles back and messed it up badly.

True, but Rossi admitted he came in too hot and got it wrong. Stoner admitted that he heard Rossi there and left him room. Rossi now had no bail out to the outside and went inside. He just ran out of tire after that. It truly was a racing incident.

[jhansen]

If you like to read about motorcycle tech, here is a very lengthy piece on the Ducati puzzle.

http://motomatters.com/analysis/2011...mosedici_.html

To sum it all up, it includes key points on the trellis frame (hard to build consistently). The truth about carbon fiber (maybe not all bad). And the 90 degree L4 (which may be the weakest link in this problem). There's also some tidbits on the Bridgestone spec tires (not so Ducati friendly anymore).

Add that all up, and Ducati have some big decisions to make.

[gomick]

Does anyone think Stoner would have won atleast 1 gp this year if he was still on the Duke?

[EGG]

Interesting read. I'm going to go out on a limb and say 'yes', but he would have fallen off more as well (as per last season).

Did Stoner's mechanic team from Ducati go to Honda with him? I kind of thought that his bike was looked after by whoever happened to be wandering around in the HRC-Repsol garage with spanner, But I think one of the various commentary teams mentioned they'd moved with him?

[GOLDFINGER]

Originally Posted by gomick

Does anyone think Stoner would have won atleast 1 gp this year if he was still on the Duke?

Yes at least 1 if not more

[Dani Filth]

it's like saying Rossi wou've had more than 100 championship points advantage already had he been on a Repsol Honda..
speculation .. and frankly based on nothing
which GP/GPs would people think would've been won by stoner?

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by gomick

Does anyone think Stoner would have won atleast 1 gp this year if he was still on the Duke?

Stoner had zero wins at this point last year and promptly signed with Honda. It was only in the 11th hour did he and Ducati finally find a setup that allowed wins. So it's not a given that he would have been winning this year. But then again, tough to bet against him, since he's the uber alien. Either way though, as Dani pointed out, it's not really all that relevant.

Ducati, IMO, look rather foolish being able to produce a bike that only one person could ride convincingly. Stoner is a known talent now, so that part of the discussion is pointless too, isn't it?

The point is, Ducati have a platform that isn't working. They made a gamble on CF in an effort to find something that Honda and Yamaha currently don't have. In the meantime, the've also lost the ability to exploit the Bridgestones. They are definitely at a crossroads. If they go twin spar aluminum, that will be uncharted territory for them. Furthermore, it will be their second all new chassis design in two to three years. And to even ponder that they could ditch the 90 degree L? Desperation...

[Trev Campbell]

To me it appears that Rossi like most of the other Ducati pilots is just not prepared to push the Ducati right onto the knife edge to make teh bike a winner.

There is a quote by a Forumla 1 driver (I can't remember who) when he was talking about Gilles Villeneuve.

'Of all of us Gilles was the one who was clearly working without a saftey net'

This was when talking how hard Gilles pushed to make some pretty average Ferraris go very fast.

I think this is exactly what we are seeing here with Stoner and Rossi on the Duke. Casey appears to have not problem/fear riding a bike at the very limit all the time whereas the other riders seem to be able to go there but not for a prolonged period of time. Its that prolonged period of pushing that makes the Duke a winner. It gan't be ridden a 8 or 9 tenths. It a bike that has to be ridden at ten tenths ALL the time. And Stoner is the only guy who was/is prepared to ride it like that. Hindsite is a wonderful thing After Laguna in 08 everyone was saying that Rossi had got into Stoners head because he fell off while leading the next 2 races. Funnily enough those 2 crashes were both front end washouts. A Ducati trait that is still a problem today (Ask Rossi) It was just a case of Stoner pushing at 10/10 to make the bike competative and coming unstuck

Having said that I also think that Rossi is a victim of his own success / legend. Rossi is heralded as the GOAT and a man who can do anything on a bike. But is he really. I don't think Rossi has ever had to push a bike as hard as he has in the last few year to beat/keep up with riders with real talent.

He is clearly a great rider but for the first half of his 500/MotoGP carrear his only opposition was Kenny Roberts Jr, Biaggi and Gibernau. These guys while good riders are hardly in the realm of Lorenzo/Stoner/Pedrosa. And I understand you can only beat the guys you are on the track with at the time, but his legend was established against lesser riders. It's much the same as with Mick Doohan. He started his carrear agianst the likes of Gardner/Rainey/Scwantz/Lawson and was on par with these guys. But once they retired he dominated against the likes of Criville and Biaggi. And as Mick said "What do you want me to do slow down ???"

[wnut]

Originally Posted by jhansen

If you like to read about motorcycle tech, here is a very lengthy piece on the Ducati puzzle.

http://motomatters.com/analysis/2011...mosedici_.html

To sum it all up, it includes key points on the trellis frame (hard to build consistently). The truth about carbon fiber (maybe not all bad). And the 90 degree L4 (which may be the weakest link in this problem). There's also some tidbits on the Bridgestone spec tires (not so Ducati friendly anymore).

Add that all up, and Ducati have some big decisions to make.

Thanks jhansen - great article.

[GTRMagic]

Is it a coincidence that the return of Mr Burgess to Mr Rossi's side that the #46 Ducati was slightly better in Brno?

[bestfit]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Is it a coincidence that the return of Mr Burgess to Mr Rossi's side that the #46 Ducati was slightly better in Brno?

JB returned at the last round at Laguna Seca.