MSc in Motorsports in the UK

[Catho500]

Hi,
I´m from Germany and I´ll graduate university in march 2006 (mechanical engineering). I´m thinking about doing my master degree in motorsports in the uk. Does anybody have experience with master courses in motorsports at "university of cranfield", "kingston university", "oxford brookes university" ............?

thank you for your help.

Catho

[Russfeld]

My personal opinion is that "motorsport degrees" have no value, and that you are better doing your masters in a science that can be used in racing, but also give you options in other technology fields. A motorsport degree doesnt garuntee you much, a vehicle dynamics degree or similar will get you a job somewhere.

[kingfloopy]

As a person studying mechanical engineering myself I agree that it would be best to get a more general degree such as vehicle dynamics or i.c. engines. This way you have a better chance of getting a job outside of motorsports if the need arrises. I can also say that there is no replacement for experience. I worked an internship over the past spring and summer and I learned more there than I ever have at college. So if you can find an internship with a racing team, chassis builder, engine builder, etc. you will be much better off and look better to any prospective future employers.

J.D.

[richard_sykes]

But it does provide you with good contacts as the course are pretty much run by motorsport companies such as Lotus @ Kingston.

[Rubinho]

Originally Posted by richard_sykes

But it does provide you with good contacts as the course are pretty much run by motorsport companies such as Lotus @ Kingston.

Ditto Prodrive at Cranfield I believe.

Kingston have recently launched a motorsports focussed Vehicle Dynamics masters.

I disagree slightly that a motorsports masters is not very useful for getting a job, as the old adage goes "it's who you know not what you know" and the chances of meeting relevent people amongst your student collegues and lecturers (who as has already been pointed out are often professionals working for one of the large companies) are much higher. There's also the value of working in an environment with like-minded, enthusiastic people you're going to have access to their ideas over coffee which is (if the people are good) great.

Internships, as kingfloopy mention, are pretty much mandatory if you want to get ahead. I've had a great one for the last 2 summer vacations (I'm there at the moment) and it's value cannot be underestimated. Not only am I working with great professionals but I'm out there at tracks and with teams learning how it all really works. Failing a proper internship, give your time for free to a team and see where it takes you.

[ubrben]

I think motorsport degrees talk themselves up a bit too much. My feeling is that the Kingston course is a bit poor. The Lotus thing is a big headline grabber, but it's one module and the rest are done at Kingston by lecturers with bugger all motorsport engineering.

Cranfield is ok I guess, but I've seen a lot of people do the course and end up outside motorsport or in sales engineering positions.

My advice would be to go to a good UK or US uni and do a masters or phd in something like vehicle dynamics, systems engineering, or aerodynamics. Do Formula SAE if you can. The difference between someone who's designed and built their own car is massive.

For the record I did a 4 year MEng in mechanical engineering with a year out spent in the aerospace industry and I now have a motorsport engineering job.

Ben

[Andrew Gunnell]

Hello Catho

It all depends on what you want to do. However below is how I found the courses I looked at.

I graduated this year from Coventry University with a degree in Motorsport Engineering. I found the course I did was more an automotive course with a hint of motorsport added to it and I did not get as much practical experience as I would of like to have done.
.
I have looked at doing a Masters at Carnfield, Brookes and Swansea Institute of Higher Education.

I found that Carnfield would be to intense for me, with the modules been run over one week each and I found it hard in getting them to answer my questions with logical answers, although their course had more of a motorsport feel to it.

Brookes were very helpful and answered all my questions when I had a look round, although their course is more on the automotive side.

Swansea was very similar to Brookes with the course on the automotive side, but they only had 3 people down to do their course this coming year when I spoke to them in July.

I am currently going to have a gap year to get some work experience and to look at what I want to do next year and if a Masters is for me.

I hope this will help.

Andrew

[Lukin]

Ben, you are a whore and you get around way too much!

Though I can't contribute too much, here is a thread on Atlas which you should read as those guys (Ben included) know what they are on about.

http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread...threadid=81592

[ubrben]

Originally Posted by Lukin

Ben, you are a whore and you get around way too much!

Pot, Kettle, Black...

That thread on Atlas has been pretty interesting though.

If I would say one thing it would be don't think "If I do that course I'll get the career I want" it just ain't like that.

Ben

[Lukin]

But I was on this corner, I mean forum, first!

I agree with that. Most people can be taught the technical and mechanical aspects, but you can't teach commitement and willingness and desire to work 16-18 hr days.

That said, if I had done accounting I doubt I would of got an engineering job!

I only started with my team a month ago, but talking to them, the common element in 'how did you get this job' involved them volunteering their time to a club team and expressing interest to as many teams as they could. I can't say I know of anyone who got a job in this industry from a ad in the paper.

Not saying that they arent enormously smart and great at what they do, but brains/talent alone wont get you there.

[ss_collins]

Oxford Brookes is well positioned and I can't knock them. I did a motorsport engineering National diploma and studied for an Automotive Eng degree at Brookes (until I got distracted by other things) and now I do work in Motorsport Engineering but I cover the engineering as a journalist rather than an engineer. Though that said I am still employed because of wht I did a College and Uni

[R59]

From my limited knowledge, Cranfield seems to be the place of the moment - for pure Motorsports stuff.

I'll just wait until I've cracked this motorsport game and they give me an honory professorship guv!

Colin Chapman didn't have a degree in Motorsport. Neither did Keith Duckworth.

But with the attitude that I have come across - if you haven't got a degree, you can't be an engineer - it's a little sad, snobbish, and to be honest (words that get *'d out).

Though in this day and age, there are no old fashioned apprenticeships where the foolish are trained by the wise, so you have to go to school, uni, etc.. to obtain the theory first before attempting to find someone who will let you put it into practice.
With apprenticeships, you did the practice under the wing of someone who knew, then learned why it did what it did, which in my mind is far better way to pass on knowledge and stimulate ideas.

But I'm bitter twisted and hanker on for agricultural technology coupled to brute force and ignorance.

Rob.

[ubrben]

Originally Posted by racing59

But with the attitude that I have come across - if you haven't got a degree, you can't be an engineer - it's a little sad, snobbish, and to be honest (words that get *'d out).

It's almost as bad as the inverse snobbery that sees degree qualified engineers sneered at for having no practical experience.

I firmly believe that having a degree in mech eng or a related subject and having done Formula SAE/Student is a better combination of practical and theoretical knowledge than someone without a degree.

Having looked at many cars in many paddocks over the past decade my abiding conclusion is that motorsport is full of voodoo and fashion which persists because the fundamental engineering understanding doesn't exist to objectively assess the validity of many things.

A classis is 90% of the suspensions I see have poor load paths and oversized bearings and mounts as a result. Rod ends in reverse cyclic bending, etc.

I'm not saying everyone needs a degree (far from it) and I've met some great apprentices in my previous aerospace engineering job, but degrees do give you a different sort of knowledge that you simply cannot get just spannering in a paddock.

Ben

Edit I agre on motorsport degrees being unnecessary, but I believe Chapman had a degree, or at least an HND.

[GolddustMini]

Originally Posted by Russfeld

My personal opinion is that "motorsport degrees" have no value, and that you are better doing your masters in a science that can be used in racing, but also give you options in other technology fields. A motorsport degree doesnt garuntee you much, a vehicle dynamics degree or similar will get you a job somewhere.

what a load of bull, sorry but your suggesting that my degree is worthless? cheers mate

want to tell that to the people from Msport, Honda, Garrett, 888racing etc that have employed graduated from motorsports tailored courses?? want to tell them that the poeple they have employed are not fit to work for them as the degree certificates they have are of "no value"

your talking out of your behind sir, yes its an engineering degree, an acreditted one which must be of some indication its a worthwhile engineering course. its just mearly a little tailored towards the motorsports industry than perhaps a mechanical engineering degree, that DOES NOT make it worthless.

the main problem with degrees in general and trying to get into the motorsport industry is that they want experience in the industry as well as the brains behind the degree. therefore alot of these Motorsports degrees have some form of connection with racing teams which all adds towards experience on your CV. for example along with my degree ive got experience in running cars in formula ford and manufaturing and running cars in national Supersports, ive also completed a years placement in a company specialising in racing engines, plus obviously a successful formula student entry (won the design competition (class 1-200) this year by a country mile) means i have some industrial experience, which looks good to an employer when my CV graces there deskspace...

[R59]

Originally Posted by ubrben

It's almost as bad as the inverse snobbery that sees degree qualified engineers sneered at for having no practical experience.


Edit I agre on motorsport degrees being unnecessary, but I believe Chapman had a degree, or at least an HND.

I agree.

We should all get along together and learn from each other.

And as for Chapman and his HND, another 5 unit's and I'd have one of those too, but I still wouldn't have a degree and the "snobs" would still sneer at me. I could then spend a year at Uni doing a conversion course writing about what I'd done during my HNC course, and I could have a BSc, but since I work for myself, I have no employer to impress, and far too much work to afford the time back "at school". Did consider the OU as a path, but I don't have enough spare time for that.

[pitcrew]

Originally Posted by ubrben

I firmly believe that having a degree in mech eng or a related subject and having done Formula SAE/Student is a better combination of practical and theoretical knowledge than someone without a degree.

but degrees do give you a different sort of knowledge that you simply cannot get just spannering in a paddock.

Originally Posted by GolddustMini

the main problem with degrees in general and trying to get into the motorsport industry is that they want experience in the industry as well as the brains behind the degree. therefore alot of these Motorsports degrees have some form of connection with racing teams which all adds towards experience on your CV.

I totally agree

Even HND is to a high standard now so a qualification be it HND or Degree Engeneering in my opinion will serve you better in the long run than just mechanical knowledge.

Plus the fact its Motorsport Eng it is diffrent than just enginerring you get a different angle on everything.

[AlexF]

You need a qualification in this day and age!

So what if Mr Duckworth and Mr Chapman didn't? That was YEARS ago in a totally different world!

Alex - teacher!

[THR]

i think they are good, sounds to me like its similar to normal mech eng but a bit more focused on cars, you still do the maths and the science... and the report writing... so its all the same really.
just the employers can goto one place and look for people.
but at the end of the day its how much u want to be in motor sport,.... if your happy being paid little for the first few years then thats ok lol...
no real money in being a spanner... or even a engineer for a car really is there? you gota be a designer or team manager to earn nice money.

i think they cant hurt but dont mean youll get the job u want!

uni is about getting drunk anyway innit??

[richard_sykes]

I`ll tell you after the 22nd

[THR]

lol it is... beer rules lol
red bull nights are esp good
but also are drink a HUGE amount of anything in your own flat
halls... brilliant... have a party
partys are truely brilliatn when it aitn your house!!!

[R59]

Originally Posted by AlexF

You need a qualification in this day and age!

So what if Mr Duckworth and Mr Chapman didn't? That was YEARS ago in a totally different world!

Alex - teacher!

A different world when you had to be an innovator, not just a tweaker of existing designs.

You didn't have computer modelling to try out your ideas, or everyday access to wind tunnels, or exotic materials. Just some very very clever ideas.

But alas, you are right, in this day and age, having no qualification won't help you, regardless of your natural talent.

At least we don't require degree's in driving to be racecar drivers, in that case, the only degree's I'll have will be "up to 90 degree's, navigating through the side window!" Perhaps they'd give me a honorary doctorate?

Rob.

[Bishop Ranter]

The Cranfield programme says it won't guarantee you a motorsport career but it does appear to help many get into motorsport. At the last count eight out of 10 F1 companies were employing Cranfield graduates; Red Bull Racing and Williams F1 in particular, and the latter makes available bursaries. The University's alumni also boasts Pat Symonds (Renault F1), Christian Loriaux (M-Sport), Adrian Reynard, Craig Wilson (B.A.R. Honda) and WilliamsF1's C.O.O. Alex Burns: all high powered people. The University runs its programme through an industrial advisory committee, chaired by Sir Jackie Stewart OBE and it is home to the Cranfield Impact Cente where FIA testing is undertaken. All the students on the MSc are guest members of the BRDC while they study. So the Cranfield MSc course provides a good platform. It's up to the individuals to exploit this. Those who do well tend to have good first degrees in mech/auto/aero eng. and practical ability. There is no substitute for actually getting involved and the students at Cranfield are encouraged to gain experience with teams to complement their studies that include the Prodrive Group project and individual thesis projects that are often industry backed. Check out the website www.motorsport.cranfield.ac.uk Recruitment for 2006 entry is now underway.

[ubrben]

Originally Posted by racing59

A different world when you had to be an innovator, not just a tweaker of existing designs.

You didn't have computer modelling to try out your ideas, or everyday access to wind tunnels, or exotic materials. Just some very very clever ideas.

But alas, you are right, in this day and age, having no qualification won't help you, regardless of your natural talent.
Rob.

That is a perfect example of the inverse snobbery that pervades this sort of debate.

All those things you talk about are just tools. It still requires engineering talent and ability to use them. A wind tunnel will tell you what the forces and moments are, they won’t design the car. Finite element analysis doesn’t design an optimum structure no matter how much Altair would have you believe.

Tools move on. Imagine if you’d had the same attitude when the slide rule superseded the abaqus. Chapman used a drawing board and according to Jabby Crombac’s book, loved mechanical pencils, surely his “natural talent” would have shone through had he used a slate and a piece of chalk? The point is that the state-of-the-art engineering tools allowed Chapman to be the best engineer he could be and if he’d been around now he’d be using all the tools your snobbery dismisses.

Do modern CAE tools make me a better engineer? – probably not
Do modern CAE tools make me more productive? – categorically yes

Ben

[ger80]

yes, CAE like FEM or CFD make only try and error game less expensive, nothing more

[THR]

for the price of some of the programs you can have a lot of trail and error!! lol

i agree tho, you can still make mistakes on 3D cad programs!! (been there done that).