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Old 21 Sep 2022, 09:53 (Ref:4126671)   #16
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Originally Posted by Derwent View Post
There are six races which should not appear due to human rights issues, plus those in the USA.
That seems very specific.

If I may ask - which six (only six)? And why USA?

As I have mentioned previously - name any country on the calendar and I could put forward an argument on why the human rights record in that county means they should not host a GP.

If I take Christopher Farris and Keith Schnakenberg's Human Rights Protection Scores as a guide, then I would reach the conclusion that the six races you refer to are (worst country first):
Brazil, Mexico, China, Saudi Arabia, Azerbaijan and UAE.

(USA actually scores worse than Azerbaijan and UAE).
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 10:42 (Ref:4126672)   #17
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
The 1950 Formula One season featured the inaugural FIA World Championship of Drivers.

The full season consisted of 24 races. The Championship consisted of six Grand Prix races, each held in Europe and open to Formula One cars, plus the Indianapolis 500, which was run to AAA National Championship regulations.

It's just an observation that there were sometimes as many GPs around that time as we have today. 1949 had 27 Grand Prix races for example.

I just thought it interesting amongst the opinion that 24 races 'dilutes the value of the GP'.
What were the 24 and what were they called?

And yes, a lot of those were “diluted”. This happened p as the entry lists varied. This time the dilution is due to fatigue.
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 10:45 (Ref:4126673)   #18
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
As I have mentioned previously - name any country on the calendar and I could put forward an argument on why the human rights record in that county means they should not host a GP.
And had previously been established you can list many technically, but a very simple consideration and realism shows you are just being technical not practical about it.

And you would do well to remember the crap we had before when you kept going there.
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 10:48 (Ref:4126674)   #19
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Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
What were the 24 and what were they called?

And yes, a lot of those were “diluted”. This happened p as the entry lists varied. This time the dilution is due to fatigue.
I agree - it is not entirely comparable. As I say, just an observation on the 'volume' of races compared to the past.

The Championship events were:
British Grand Prix
Monaco Grand Prix
Indianapolis 500
Swiss Grand Prix
Belgian Grand Prix
French Grand Prix
Italian Grand Prix

The non-Championship events were:
XI Pau Grand Prix
II Richmond Trophy
V San Remo Grand Prix
IV Grand Prix de Pari
XII British Empire Trophy
IV Gran Premio di Bari
IV J.C.C. Jersey Road Race
XII Circuit de l'Albigeois
I Grote Prijs van Nederland
III Grand Prix des Nations
I Nottingham Trophy
IV Ulster Trophy
XIX Coppa Acerbo
I Sheffield Telegraph Trophy
II BRDC International Trophy
III Goodwood Trophy
X Gran Premio de Penya Rhin
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 10:53 (Ref:4126676)   #20
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Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
And had previously been established you can list many technically, but a very simple consideration and realism shows you are just being technical not practical about it.
It's why I think it is a subject best avoided - but for some reason posters keep bringing it up as a reason to not visit certain countries, usually for other prejudicial reasons.

Is there a practical solution? Where would the line be drawn over an acceptable level of Human Rights?
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 11:33 (Ref:4126683)   #21
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Argh. It wasn’t even a subtle hint. No, you are the person taking it to this point. OK. As we can see with that last post.
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 11:38 (Ref:4126686)   #22
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
I agree - it is not entirely comparable. As I say, just an observation on the 'volume' of races compared to the past.

The Championship events were:
British Grand Prix
Monaco Grand Prix
Indianapolis 500
Swiss Grand Prix
Belgian Grand Prix
French Grand Prix
Italian Grand Prix

The non-Championship events were:
XI Pau Grand Prix
II Richmond Trophy
V San Remo Grand Prix
IV Grand Prix de Pari
XII British Empire Trophy
IV Gran Premio di Bari
IV J.C.C. Jersey Road Race
XII Circuit de l'Albigeois
I Grote Prijs van Nederland
III Grand Prix des Nations
I Nottingham Trophy
IV Ulster Trophy
XIX Coppa Acerbo
I Sheffield Telegraph Trophy
II BRDC International Trophy
III Goodwood Trophy
X Gran Premio de Penya Rhin
Notably, many not called Grand Prix.

This is another example of a simple pedantic view fails to show understanding.

Show much other stuff we could go into that means that just because there were some other races in 1950 does nothing to demonstrate whether 24 races is saturation in 2023.

The cars, the media, the championship, the entrants, etc.. almost so obvious none of it needs saying.
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 11:54 (Ref:4126693)   #23
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
It's why I think it is a subject best avoided - but for some reason posters keep bringing it up as a reason to not visit certain countries, usually for other prejudicial reasons.

Is there a practical solution? Where would the line be drawn over an acceptable level of Human Rights?
Excluding the fact that graph is basically warmed garbage and cherry picked data that actually doesn't show anything about a government but rather how those chosen to draw the data wish to be controlled. If you're going to bring to pretend your bringing facts at least understand how your data is drawn
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 12:16 (Ref:4126702)   #24
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Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
Notably, many not called Grand Prix.

This is another example of a simple pedantic view fails to show understanding.

Show much other stuff we could go into that means that just because there were some other races in 1950 does nothing to demonstrate whether 24 races is saturation in 2023.

The cars, the media, the championship, the entrants, etc.. almost so obvious none of it needs saying.
I see you have again decided to ignore the context and intent behind a post to try and score points from me.

Look back at what I posted on the subject:

'Just an observation (if 24 is considered too many) - how many F1 races were held in 1950?'

'It's just an observation that there were sometimes as many GPs around that time as we have today. 1949 had 27 Grand Prix races for example.
I just thought it interesting amongst the opinion that 24 races 'dilutes the value of the GP'.'


'I agree - it is not entirely comparable. As I say, just an observation'

You repeatedly ignored the point that I was just making an observation, not making any claim that the situations are comparable or identical.

I was also not the poster that brought into the discussion any issues surrounding the countries that host races, I was making observations based on the quantity of races. Another poster raised the HR issue, with a very specific quantity of venues that should be excluded. I queried the justification behind those six specifically.


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Originally Posted by broadrun96 View Post
Excluding the fact that graph is basically warmed garbage and cherry picked data that actually doesn't show anything about a government but rather how those chosen to draw the data wish to be controlled. If you're going to bring to pretend your bringing facts at least understand how your data is drawn
I agree with you here - the point I was trying to make (poorly it seems) when I queried which were the six races that had been included along with the USA as not being suitable for F1. This is one example of why, when making such claims, you have to understand the context within which they are made.

If I refer back to the original statement - 'There are six races which should not appear due to human rights issues, plus those in the USA.' - perhaps a more appropriate question would be simply to ask: "how did you reach the conclusion over which six races plus the USA should be removed from the calendar?"
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 14:45 (Ref:4126734)   #25
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I think when looking at the issue of Human Rights I think we should look at who is the organiser and who is the beneficiary

In Europe and US, I believe majority of GPs are organised by private organisations using mainly private funds. The state or local council only contributes little to it. However in more recent GPs, the state is active in organising these events(SA, Qatar, Russia, Abu Dhabi) and they use these events to promote their countries. In this case I believe the situation becomes political and should be fair to be questioned on matters such as Human Rights
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 18:24 (Ref:4126751)   #26
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Originally Posted by PhilipR View Post
I think when looking at the issue of Human Rights I think we should look at who is the organiser and who is the beneficiary

In Europe and US, I believe majority of GPs are organised by private organisations using mainly private funds. The state or local council only contributes little to it. However in more recent GPs, the state is active in organising these events(SA, Qatar, Russia, Abu Dhabi) and they use these events to promote their countries. In this case I believe the situation becomes political and should be fair to be questioned on matters such as Human Rights
Agreed. And aside from human rights there's democracy, civil rights etc. To me it seems a lot better to have some standards instead of none, and not reduce the question to the sort of what-about-ism that trivialises just about everything.

The (worst) issue is for me when an incredibly non-democratic state uses state funds to host a Grand Prix. It's sports-washing meant to elevate the country in the eyes of the world while using money coming of the back of people who get little benefit from their state. I think it's tragic that many sports (F1, football among them) have such low standards in this regard.

I think Freedom House's world ranknings are a worthwile look for many people. A quick read of any of the country profile towards the bottom hosting F1 should be chilling to most people.

https://freedomhouse.org/country/aze...dom-world/2022
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 19:44 (Ref:4126755)   #27
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I see you have again decided to ignore the context and intent behind a post to try and score points from me.
No, not scoring points. Although I will confess to frustration at your posts. Let’s review where all this starts shall we? (Rhetorical question).

I was mainly referring back to the point I made that they were not all equal races. And my little joke previously “Petit Prix”.

And making the point back to your original post about it. I agree with you it is “not entirely comparable”. Not at all really. So in conclusion that there may have been 24 races of some such in 1950 that is not particular relevant to judging if there are too many races at the moment. Then there is everything else.

As for me trying to score points. No. I hope your incorrect thought there is not an excuse to ignore the underlying problem here.

Still I apologise for my part in this.
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 19:54 (Ref:4126758)   #28
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24 races is too many in my opinion. It will dilute the value of each one, and make a Grand Prix feel less special because there are so many of them. Particularly considering there are going to be more and more sprint races to come as well. And that is just from the perspective of a fan; the real issue is the fact that it will be so difficult on those working in Formula 1. In 2018 the teams said they never wanted another triple header and F1 said they wouldn't have any more. But it just seems like we are heading towards a situation a bit like the video linked
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Old 22 Sep 2022, 06:26 (Ref:4126793)   #29
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The major difference was attendance wasn't compulsory like with today's World Championship.

A lot of those "non-championship" races back into the 50s featured at most one or two "stars" backed up by a rag-tag entry of locals in old single seater machinery that lapped many, many seconds per lap slower than the front of the field. Even as recently as the 70s Silverstone's International Trophy was padded out with F5000 cars which outnumbered the F1s. It was hardly a major sporting event, the first big race I attended was the '77 IT and it wasn't rivetting.

A very different scene compared with 24 top-line races and not comparable IMO.

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Old 23 Sep 2022, 17:52 (Ref:4127026)   #30
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In Europe and US, I believe majority of GPs are organised by private organisations using mainly private funds.
When Honda and Red Bull both host a Grand Prix, why are Mercedes and Alpine too cheap to host one? Supposedly Honda's Japanese Grand Prix even has some of the most reasonable ticket prices of the calendar. I'm unsure of the ticket prices for the Austrian Grand Prix.

You'd think Mercedes and Alpine would use their cost cap savings to host domestic Grands Prix respectively...
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