[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

If the components are that straight forward, then why not leave it up to competing multiple suppliers to service the teams' needs. Should be cheaper than having a chosen supplier of a standard item.

One question I have is how much do the teams already outsource for this? I suspect they already do, but not 100%. And if you give a team the option to build vs. buy, they are likely to build (if they have the funds). I think some teams already use internals from other suppliers. For example I believe STR uses RBR internals (inside their own casing). Who currently uses the Mercedes gearbox? Force India? Is Haas using the Ferrari unit?

End the end I think you have a good question and I don't have the answer. I suspect someone has crunched the numbers and feel that it will be a cost reduction for the teams in the end. Probably on the design side of things.

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

All of this speculation about Williams possibly supplying the spec. gearbox is making me feel guilty! A while ago I made a very glib comment to this effect as an explanation as to why they were continuing to make their own, I certainly wasn't being serious...

I don't think it will happen, but I think it was fine speculation.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Look what you've started, .

Ha! I will try to shut up about this. It really is off topic for this thread at this point.

Richard

[chillibowl]

i think the logic for spec parts in F1 isnt necessarily about whether or not its cheaper to build a straight forward part in house, rather its that F1 teams cannot be trusted to not start a spending war over things that are thought to be relatively simple.

after all, this is F1!

anyways, i would have a problem if Williams got the contract though...i almost hate to say it out loud, but to introduce a spec part built by the worst team on the grid doesn't sound like something i would want to watch.

[Aysedasi]

You wouldn't believe it, would you. Like getting a French company to make British passports.....

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Kubica is paying for the season and Mercedes wouldn't pay to put Ocon in the Williams as they are already supporting Russell.

Mercedes know what Ocon can do they don't need to put him in a Williams and of you were Ocon you would give it a wide berth at the moment surely?

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If ocon sees Russell as a threat to overtake him in the pecking order, or Mercedes wants to directly compare the two, what better way? And if Mercedes wanted ocon to do it, how could he say no? Obviously, I'm just throwing a goofy idea out there anyway...

[Johno.UK]

Originally Posted by wnut

If the components are that straight forward, then why not leave it up to competing multiple suppliers to service the teams' needs. Should be cheaper than having a chosen supplier of a standard item.

Not necessarily. One company supplying all the teams could probably do it cheaper than several companies supplying a couple each. All depends on how many there are and if there are any economy of scales with similar technologies in other series.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

Not necessarily. One company supplying all the teams could probably do it cheaper than several companies supplying a couple each. All depends on how many there are and if there are any economy of scales with similar technologies in other series.

I can put my hand on my heart and tell you that I have never seen a spec part in any racing series that represented good value for money, every last one of them has been a ripoff.

If you want a good value part, open source the design to anyone that wants to manufacture it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

I can put my hand on my heart and tell you that I have never seen a spec part in any racing series that represented good value for money, every last one of them has been a ripoff.

If you want a good value part, open source the design to anyone that wants to manufacture it.

Xtrac have been the sole manufacturer for IndyCar since 2000, with the current contract for gearboxes and spares running until and including 2022. That speaks for itself.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

I can put my hand on my heart and tell you that I have never seen a spec part in any racing series that represented good value for money, every last one of them has been a ripoff.

If you want a good value part, open source the design to anyone that wants to manufacture it.

Being a controlled part, opening it up to multiple manufacturers creates additional problems. Such as expanded bureaucracy to ensure desired parity between suppliers. And the parity may not exist. Teams would be buying from each supplier to evaluate performance to see if supplier A provides some slight edge over supplier B. That competition sounds nice, but is exactly what the FIA is trying to avoid with a homologated part from a single supplier.

I get the unsaid point of competition could potentially drive down the costs. But this part has a small customer base. It may not be economical for multiple suppliers to try to fight for a limited number of customers. Customers may gravitate to one supplier anyhow leaving one or more out in the cold. Probably part of the attraction of submitting a bid is in knowing you have a predictable income stream as you’re the sole supplier. At a fixed cost of course.

But I believe there is precedence for multiple suppliers of homologated parts. It’s been a long time since I looked, but I believe there is more than one supplier of the ultrasonic fuel flow meter that is FIA homologated and used by F1, WEC and maybe elsewhere. But that part is small, has well defined and specific performance parameters and that might be harder to replicate in the scenario of the gearbox cassette.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Xtrac have been the sole manufacturer for IndyCar since 2000, with the current contract for gearboxes and spares running until and including 2022. That speaks for itself.

I am not sure what you are driving at here BJ.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

. But that part is small, has well defined and specific performance parameters and that might be harder to replicate in the scenario of the gearbox cassette.

Richard

I agree with your reasoning and Johnno's for the first bit in theory.

Seems that you have come round to believing the gear cassettes/internals are in fact complex parts that are difficult to manufacture, and a performance differentiator?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

I am not sure what you are driving at here BJ.

In your post #706, you said: "I can put my hand on my heart and tell you that I have never seen a spec part in any racing series that represented good value for money, every last one of them has been a ripoff.

If you want a good value part, open source the design to anyone that wants to manufacture it. "

So I mentioned Xtrac/IndyCar, as an example of a spec part, the gearbox, that's been good value for money in a racing series. Otherwise I don't think they would have used them for nearly 20 years.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

In your post #706, you said: "I can put my hand on my heart and tell you that I have never seen a spec part in any racing series that represented good value for money, every last one of them has been a ripoff.

If you want a good value part, open source the design to anyone that wants to manufacture it. "

So I mentioned Xtrac/IndyCar, as an example of a spec part, the gearbox, that's been good value for money in a racing series. Otherwise I don't think they would have used them for nearly 20 years.

Ah okay, thanks BJ, I thought that was what you meant but was unsure as I know there was a lot of moaning in IndyCar about the prices of the spec parts being too high, but it is good to hear of instances where a spec part has worked to the benefit of the competitors.

Perhaps the gearbox prices were kept reasonable by the threat of competition from the likes of Hewland and Holinger?

Limiting the development of gearboxes in a formula where a 2 engine supply costs $40 million a year does however just seem to be a bad joke.

[broadrun96]

No one manufacturer is making enough F1 gearboxes to make it particularly cheap to make a few more, cut the supply in half and you get teams likely paying the same or more for the product as the R&D costs are doubled per unit. As soon as MB picks a unit and wins the WCC, the other guys are screwed and we're back to one builder. Save the time and have one build from the start.

And to bring it back to topic, hopefully that bid could get Williams the cash needed to develop their design. But I don't think the internals would be that big a contract. Aren't they on pace to only use a couple transmissions a season soon anyway? The contract would be to build what 50 units a year, plus spares as needed?

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[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

Seems that you have come round to believing the gear cassettes/internals are in fact complex parts that are difficult to manufacture, and a performance differentiator?

No. My thinking hasn’t changed.

Teams will treat everything as a performance differentiator if you allow them. Thankfully even they understand it makes no sense to manufacture 100% of the car themselves. Otherwise they would not be using off the shelf electrical connector, nuts and bolts, etc.

Regarding the gearbox cassette, if every team created their own, they would all be slightly different and the designers would tell you why theirs is best. However, if examined objectively, do they have a significant impact on the cars performance vs their competitors? Probably not.

I am generally not a fan of spec parts. I am mostly playing devils advocate here with respect to the thinking on why this is going to be a spec part. In the end, I can’t find flaws in their thinking “IF” this really is a money saver. I am more concerned about team survival and closing performance gaps than the purity of teams building stuff like this themselves.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

And to bring it back to topic, hopefully that bid could get Williams the cash needed to develop their design. But I don't think the internals would be that big a contract. Aren't they on pace to only use a couple transmissions a season soon anyway? The contract would be to build what 50 units a year, plus spares as needed?

That is my thinking as well. Someone like Xtrac, this might fit within their existing production capacity. Someone like Williams, might need to expand their capabilities to service what is like a small contract. Now if this was Williams planning on expanding into someone else’s business (such as taking on Xtrac) and the F1 cassette is the foot in the door (or a halo project) then that could make sense. But otherwise I would be shocked if Williams even bids on this.

Richard

[ScotsBrutesFan]

But this contract is for building the internals and not the complete gearbox including casing...is that right?

The xtrac gearbox is a complete using built for a spec chassis, so the question is whether there would be money in it for a currently non F1 manufacturer to design spec internals that would be able to fit inside possibly upto 12 but likely 4 or 5 different gearbox casings?

Or putting it another way, teams having to buy the spec internals but then having to design their own gearbox casing and surround to go with it. Would that really be a cost reduction?

[Langers]

Originally Posted by Greem

https://www.motorsportjobs.com/en/jobs/williams

11 aero-related jobs going at Williams; looks like they've identified at least part of the problem.

How much do those aero gigs pay?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Or putting it another way, teams having to buy the spec internals but then having to design their own gearbox casing and surround to go with it. Would that really be a cost reduction?

Not different than now other than they no longer have to design and build the internals. I expect the internals today are very similar. The biggest impact will be the first redesign to use the new spec. Teams adjusting from what they have now to the new spec part.

Richard

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Langers

How much do those aero gigs pay?

No idea. Maybe you have to bring your own funding.....

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Langers

How much do those aero gigs pay?

Apparently way not enough!

Pretty well confirms that there is something major wrong at Williams.

[bella]

Originally Posted by wnut

Apparently way not enough!

Pretty well confirms that there is something major wrong at Williams.

that’s a reach. it’s a job advert. by the same logic, are we to assume there’s something very wrong in marcedes’ fabrication departments because there’s often jobs going there??

i’m sure we can all agree williams need to look at themselves, their structure and whether a lot of folk need to be shown the door, but at this point there’s far too much of “claire williams sneezed, so there’s something wrong with williams” hysteria.

i’m sure we all work in rubbish working environments from time to time, but if you let it affect how you do your job you’re probably not as good as you think you are.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

No one manufacturer is making enough F1 gearboxes to make it particularly cheap to make a few more, cut the supply in half and you get teams likely paying the same or more for the product as the R&D costs are doubled per unit. As soon as MB picks a unit and wins the WCC, the other guys are screwed and we're back to one builder. Save the time and have one build from the start.

And to bring it back to topic, hopefully that bid could get Williams the cash needed to develop their design. But I don't think the internals would be that big a contract. Aren't they on pace to only use a couple transmissions a season soon anyway? The contract would be to build what 50 units a year, plus spares as needed?

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Personally, Williams would be best focusing on getting up the grid rather than tendering for a gearbox contract. Stick to the knitting as my grandmother would have said.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Personally, Williams would be best focusing on getting up the grid rather than tendering for a gearbox contract. Stick to the knitting as my grandmother would have said.

I am not aware, nor do I think that I have read anywhere, that Williams have or are considering tendering for the contract. It was all a hypothetical theory that formed part of this discussion.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bella

that’s a reach. it’s a job advert. by the same logic, are we to assume there’s something very wrong in marcedes’ fabrication departments because there’s often jobs going there??

i’m sure we can all agree williams need to look at themselves, their structure and whether a lot of folk need to be shown the door, but at this point there’s far too much of “claire williams sneezed, so there’s something wrong with williams” hysteria.

i’m sure we all work in rubbish working environments from time to time, but if you let it affect how you do your job you’re probably not as good as you think you are.

11 Aerodynamicists, 1 team, 1 time - just business as usual?
Oh, and add a technical director in there too.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I am not aware, nor do I think that I have read anywhere, that Williams have or are considering tendering for the contract. It was all a hypothetical theory that formed part of this discussion.

I know Mike, I know. And as I said a few days ago, I feel like it's all my fault!