TVR Griffiths 200/400 and their Chassis Numbers

[esper]

[mark garritt]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Both of Joes cars won the Six Hour,no problems with brakes whatsoever despite knocking out sub 3 min's.
I have been informed [by someone who Doe's know] that Webbers are under investigation.

They did! ;-)

[jellison]

Things have move on ALOT since Joe Wards car won the 6 hours - try to find the best lap then and compare to the Shipman car from this year

Brakes ARE a BIG Issue.

[terence]

From memory Chris knocked out a steady stream of 2.56s,Joe couldn't understand why he was half a second slower.

[Lee-bo]

Hi there, firstly this is a great thread, its one of the 1st proper Griffith threads ive seen in a long while, and also with a sensible debate!!
I know theres a little sheepishness around chassis numbers, but who owns/drives the ex Ronnie Farmer Yellow (as it was then) Tvr Griffith that he used to race in the early nineties at the FIA european events, against the Shepherd/Hitchins/Peruch Cobra's and the Schurg/Haas Vettes and Thompson Elans? I also believe Kerry Horan had a Burgundy car that raced aswell...?

I lost track of the car in the late nineties and just wondered if the car was still around, as i have seen a blue n white car for sale recently claiming to be the 'Ex Ronnie Farmer' Fia car but i believed he also had another car in the early nineties, maybe someone can correct me?

Regards,

Lee.

[John Turner]

Welcome, Lee

[GBRM]

Hi Lee - I think that the ex-Ronnie Farmer car is now the blue one that was at Spa and I know the Kerry Horan one was about 7 years ago written off at somewhere like Pau (it was somewhere abroad anyway!!) as I chatted to a current Griff owner about it Spa - all that was salvageable from the accident was the engine, the rest was left where it crashed and I seem to remember it was a pretty big one, something like 145mph - will check my Autosports when I get home.

[terence]

Welcome Lee,the blue and white car is from Joe Ward,he bought it from Ronnie,it was in Ronnie's colour scheme of yellow.The current? owner charnged the colour I believe. I was under the impression that Jamie Boot's car was originally Kelly's car??

[wolf sun]

Nothing on chassis numbers, I'm afraid...this years lot from Spa, thought they might still be of interest to the experts, sorry if not.

Richard Tyzack's TVR in the background


Jamie Boot's


Malcolm Johnson's


Jon Shipman's


Ian Bankhurst's (that's a Grantura, right?)


Boot's (Not the chemists)


Rod Begbie's (Grantura)

[terence]

Very interesting WS,striking difference's between Jamie's version to some of the other griff's,someone must have found proof that the arches were like that in period!!

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by wolf sun

Malcolm Johnson's


Jon Shipman's

Terry, according to the FIA these are the only two legal cars - all bodies must be like these.

[GBRM]

Also, just to be clear on the bodies as I don't think I was above; the bodies don't have to look as drastic as the above but the FIA have said the bodies can either be as per standard or with the above type arches.

If you do use a standard body I'm reliably informed that you can't get the homologated wheels in (which is why they cut the body about in period).

Hopefully no-one will pick me up on this now - lol!!

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by GBRM

Terry, according to the FIA these are the only two legal cars - all bodies must be like these.

Nearly but not quite.The FIA so far have acknowleged that a car to this bodily specification took part in an International event-thus is acceptable.There still exists the possibilty that another and differnt example will be unearthed.
My only nagging query about the accepted body is whether it was legal in 1965 to have just mesh over the carbs.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Very interesting WS,striking difference's between Jamie's version to some of the other griff's,someone must have found proof that the arches were like that in period!!

Regards an earlier post you made Terry. I am pretty sure that Jamie Boots car is actually the ex Serge van havre Car, chassis 4005050. i may be wrong but I have seen this when it was being painted somewhere and the evidence of its previous left hand drive life with Serge was clearly visible.

Regards the cars that Nigel has prepped and ran at Spa, I am reliably informed that the body as pictured is now the configuration that the Fia have accepted as "In Period" The bodywork replicates the EHM Paul car which has been proven to have raced internationally in that format.

Personally I think the shape is pretty awful but Nigel has made a lovely job of softening the lines as best as possible without losing the original lines of the EH paul car. i think the Fia insisted on shape changes 3 times before finally certifying that car. The powder blue also helps to soften the shape.

Personally I think the Fia have just been their usual "anal" selves over the body style and cynically perhaps they have settled on the ugly body style to deter griffiths from being built in anything other than std body dimensions.

Regards Homologation, as far as I am aware the 400 was never seperately homologated , It was a continuation of the 200 homologation. The papers I have copies of list the carburettor as "downdraft" "weber", No fitted, "4" model, "48IDM" with 48mm flange hole and 42mm chokes 165 main jet. This is Fia recognition number 206 for chassis number 200/5/001 recognition being valid from 1st august 1965 for appendix J

The document also indicates an intake manifold and one 4 choke carburettor as an option in the rear appendices

So as far as I am aware it is clear that the car was homologated for 48 IDM's with an option to run a single carb.

Again it seems just another excuse to make things difficult for a winning formulae.

and they wonder why people are fed up with it all.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Heightswitch

...........Again it seems just another excuse to make things difficult for a winning formulae.
and they wonder why people are fed up with it all.

No-one is forced to race a particular make / model, surely?

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

No-one is forced to race a particular make / model, surely?

No but in the case of a griffith they are often hampered!!
N.

[Lee-bo]

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome!

Im personally in the 'Cobra' camp, my family has been involved with cobras for 25 years, but before i get shot down ha ha, im generally a fan of 60's GT cars and admire Cobra's, TVR's, Vette's, E-Types (original ones ha ha), Elans etc.

Ive been involved and followed the scene since the early 90's and one of my 1st encounters with the TVR Griffith was Ronnies Yellow car.

I am although, in agreement that the FIA are being VERY harsh and particularly unclear when it comes to the spec and homologation of the Griffith with regards to engines, arch's, brakes, uprights etc... and i believe the TVR has been unfairly scrutenised when there are supposedly 'original' Lightweight E-Types that seem to be able to run whatever they like without question..!

Now im sure alot of people involved in FIA GTS-12 (as i think it was in the early 90's) will know, there was a phase in the mid 90's where there was a small amount of cheating/bending of rules when it came to V8 engines in the Cobra's/Vettes/Tvr's, people were running motorsport 4 bolt blocks, roller rockers n cams etc... Now obviously i know that it was technically 'cheating', but no1 had a real advantage because EVERYONE was doing the same!!! But, the advantage was the fact that the grids were full of 3-4 Cobras, 3-4 vettes and 3-4 TVR's all racing together relatively closely and hence, providing close, exciting racing which is what we all wanted, and what the paying fans and public travelled to watch!

Nowadays, there are considerably less grids, and the class as a whole had been reduced to an extent. Obviously there are the special meetings like silverstone classic, Goodwood revival ( which i wont get started on lol) Spa 6hr meetings that people make special efforts to attend but in the early 90's there would be 12-14 Cobra's, Vette's, TVR's, Ferrari 250's at EVERY FIA round!!

Lol, this is just my 2p worth, and of course, i am open to comments...! Its nice to have a constructive forum discussing this period of racing.

Lee.

[Heightswitch]

Hello Lee.

I remember those halcyon days well and it is what gave me the impetus to try to achieve what I have very nearly achieved.

What really irks me is that I have spent the best part of 4 years scrimping and saving to build myself a racing car, not to stretch regs and win a particular race series but to build a car that I actually like and want to drive.

my car was built as a result of the Fia relaxing the regs around 1965 and allowing HTP replica cars. as such I have built myself a very historically accurate car as was.

My car runs pretty much a 60's historic spec with a couple of tweaks in some safety critical areas. I used all of the relevant homologation documents and looked around at all the fia cars at the time to essentially build a legal (non competitive) griff, all be it with slightly flared standard looking arches to allow the homologated wheel dims.

I now have a car I love but will not be allowed to run in Fia events.

I pretty much though have decided that i don't want to run in Fia because of the sniping so will run in UK club racing where I can just have fun and enjoy my 40 year old car on its original chassis!!

Perhaps the grids are low now because people cannot be bothered with all the beaurocracy which has become prevalent in fia.

The EHM paul shaped car still maintains all of the bits that the Fia were trying to outlaw to even out the cars!! so they will be as fast as they always were

Money and engineering skill will still ultimately allow a griff to be built to trounce a lot of opposition because it always was a very good basis for a race car.

All the Fia have achieved is to make it much more difficult for real people like me operating on a pittance of an annual budget and a monthly bank statement hidden from the wife to compete and have a good time.

I can understand some rule tweaks to even out fields with changing grid numbers. But did the Fia really have to be so vindictive regards body style etc etc.

the easiest way to limit any race car is just limit the disc diameter, thickness and calliper type. people like me can handle this sort of rule change!! re-bodying a car is quite a different matter though.

Neil.

[terence]

Neil,thank you for the info,I would dearly love to know where the 'Proof' came from.The amount of time/effort put into looking for Period shots when running the Joe Ward cars was obviously completely wasted because we only ever came up with Gerry's car with the butchered rear arches and standard front's. Quite amazing where these photos come from really.
After a fairly lengthy discussion with the leading author on TVR Griffiths,it was told me that 'TVR most certainly did not have the finance [in period] to accommodate the luxury of Homologation papers because they never actually competed in an international event'.[Just to add to the confusion!!

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Neil,thank you for the info,I would dearly love to know where the 'Proof' came from.The amount of time/effort put into looking for Period shots when running the Joe Ward cars was obviously completely wasted because we only ever came up with Gerry's car with the butchered rear arches and standard front's. Quite amazing where these photos come from really.
After a fairly lengthy discussion with the leading author on TVR Griffiths,it was told me that 'TVR most certainly did not have the finance [in period] to accommodate the luxury of Homologation papers because they never actually competed in an international event'.[Just to add to the confusion!!

Who's your leading author Terry?

The issue for me is that all I want to do is race my car with its old chassis and body.

The real issue is that 8" wheels were homologated with the car so as long as the car has 8" wheels does it really matter what shape the arches are?

Cobras, ferraris and e-types also run the same 8" wheel.

Again this just smacks of a desire to banish some cars from racing which is a shame for everyon including the paying public who want to see a good selection of old racers racing.

Money will always win through so the only real loosers in all the politics are the impoverished clubby types like me.

I will try to dig a pic of the EHM paul car out and post it. I am sure I have one somewhere.

That car also ran with rear discs in period but thats a pandoras box best left alone.

N.

[terence]

Perhaps you shouldn't have mentioned that!!. As regards the Author,I'll surf through my mail and try and find the quote for you,then send it on.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Perhaps you shouldn't have mentioned that!!. As regards the Author,I'll surf through my mail and try and find the quote for you,then send it on.

Why not? History is history whether some people want to change the rules around it or not. Its the politics around massaging rules to exclude certain cars that annoys me. I have lots of period shots of e-types back in the day as well and its funny how none of them look anything like they do today but nobody seems to mind!!

Still looking for that shot of the EHM paul car but have also found this which makes interesting reading, especially the trial of rear disc brakes.



I take it this is the car you alluded to Terry? MMT 7C, owned by Martin Lilley and driven by Gerry.

Perhaps seeing that Martin is in Rude health the Fia should just ask him about how some of the cars left the factory or were raced??

still looking for the other car

[terence]

Yes,it is the very car,I have just sold the car he used as the demonstrator. You talk about the politics involved regarding E types,I would say they went far further that just the one make!

[wolf sun]

I'm not intending to spam this thread with my pictures, but I've got one from last year's Six Hours that - even to a layman like me - illustrates some of the things that are discussed here.

Malcolm Johnson's car, 2008

[GBRM]

Great pic Wolf, really does show the difference and how the looks have been spoilt - for whatever reason.

As an aside, at the start of '66 MMT7C ran on a Carter Carb (instead of a Holly), Cobra knock-offs, 6x15s and 6.5x15s with funnily enougn an E-Type LSD!!