[Multi 21] Sir Lewis

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Really? i see Lewis holding just as many cards. His personality, standing in the world is great advertisement for Mercedes and their key audience for car sales. Not only is he the face of their success, he has been a key part of it for the last several years.

Can Mercedes win without Lewis next year? probably.....2022? who knows.....but i would bet my bottom dollar they have a better chance WITH Lewis than without.

Both have as much to gain, and lose in this situation.

I think this is what you might term as the 'general' view, but the reality is the matter is far from that simplistic.

I would venture that if it is Hamilton and not the team that is delaying agreement because of certain stipulations whether it be money vs contract length (or wanting more non-racing 'requirements' be permitted into his deal) another 'general' view might be that he is being very naive in the current climate and arguably misguided.

Not sure how it could be the team that is the problem. They have budgets to work to and plans for the next 2-5 years. If one driver cannot fit into the plan, then they are under no obligation to compromise and they have to seek a new driver?

Maybe we are looking at a supersub 1 year deal for someone whilst Hamilton and Merc sort it all out. One way or another!

I can't help but think that if Hamilton was truly happy about carrying on doing what he loves doing, or had the deal he thinks he needs, it would have been announced yonks ago.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chunterer

...(or wanting more non-racing 'requirements' be permitted into his deal)....

OK. I just wonder then if this is the crux of it. I just don't see it being money, or primarily money, could it be that he wants something more from Mercedes to highlight his cause that Mercedes aren't prepared to give him?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I think this is what you might term as the 'general' view, but the reality is the matter is far from that simplistic.

I would venture that if it is Hamilton and not the team that is delaying agreement because of certain stipulations whether it be money vs contract length (or wanting more non-racing 'requirements' be permitted into his deal) another 'general' view might be that he is being very naive in the current climate and arguably misguided.

Not sure how it could be the team that is the problem. They have budgets to work to and plans for the next 2-5 years. If one driver cannot fit into the plan, then they are under no obligation to compromise and they have to seek a new driver?

Maybe we are looking at a supersub 1 year deal for someone whilst Hamilton and Merc sort it all out. One way or another!

I can't help but think that if Hamilton was truly happy about carrying on doing what he loves doing, or had the deal he thinks he needs, it would have been announced yonks ago.

At the same time, if Mercedes weren’t truly happy with Hamilton and truly thought he was of no value to mercedes, and that they could win the championship without him, they would have announced his replacement yonks ago.

As I said above, it’s beneficial for both parties to continue

[E.B]

All I know is im getting bored rigid over the whole process. Sign something already.
Or disappear into the sunset and record music. I care not which.
F1 will recover fine without him.
The same as it did when all the previous GOATs during my being an F1 fan departed. (which takes us back to Clark)

[Kato]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I think this is what you might term as the 'general' view, but the reality is the matter is far from that simplistic.

I would venture that if it is Hamilton and not the team that is delaying agreement because of certain stipulations whether it be money vs contract length (or wanting more non-racing 'requirements' be permitted into his deal) another 'general' view might be that he is being very naive in the current climate and arguably misguided.

Not sure how it could be the team that is the problem. They have budgets to work to and plans for the next 2-5 years. If one driver cannot fit into the plan, then they are under no obligation to compromise and they have to seek a new driver?

Maybe we are looking at a supersub 1 year deal for someone whilst Hamilton and Merc sort it all out. One way or another!

I can't help but think that if Hamilton was truly happy about carrying on doing what he loves doing, or had the deal he thinks he needs, it would have been announced yonks ago.

This is close to my view, the car is that good that they could win with another driver, maybe not Valterri but someone else. Hello George. Shame they did not grab Danny Ric. It might be less certain and give some of the team angina along the way but the car is that much better than the rest of the field that they know it would still win. Sure, Lewis is Lewis and that brings some an audience. But people, so what. He is a driver and therefore almost by definition expendable.

[Alan52]

I still think the end game for Mercedes is to have Lewis off contract at the same time as Max.That way they can either decide on generational change or sign whichever of the 2 is cheapest.That’s why they may only be offering him a 1 year deal.
If Lewis walks away now 2021 with a Bottas/Russell line up would be a transitional year for the team.
If you think they would want to be without 1 of the 3 best drivers-Hamilton,Verstappen,Leclerc-in the long run you are not thinking as clearly as Toto would be.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Kato

This is close to my view, the car is that good that they could win with another driver, maybe not Valterri but someone else. Hello George. Shame they did not grab Danny Ric. It might be less certain and give some of the team angina along the way but the car is that much better than the rest of the field that they know it would still win. Sure, Lewis is Lewis and that brings some an audience. But people, so what. He is a driver and therefore almost by definition expendable.

I think that’s a very short term view, and one that doesn’t take into account Lewis’s impact within the team.

Yes the car is damn good, but you can’t just rely on engineers to do that, you require feedback from great drivers to help develop cars, win in them so funds can get put back into the team.

Let’s not forget we are going into a new rule set next year, in the short term could Russell jump in and win races? Probably, with Lewis in the other car? Possibly....with the 2022 car? Who knows!

It would be a massive risk for Mercedes to drop the most successful and one of the most experienced drivers on the grid going into a whole new rule set for a young driver with very little experience within a top team.

Tbh, I think this all goes back to Williams forcing Russell to stay. If that didn’t happen, it would be likely Russell was in the car against Lewis this year.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I still think the end game for Mercedes is to have Lewis off contract at the same time as Max.That way they can either decide on generational change or sign whichever of the 2 is cheapest.That’s why they may only be offering him a 1 year deal.
If Lewis walks away now 2021 with a Bottas/Russell line up would be a transitional year for the team.
If you think they would want to be without 1 of the 3 best drivers-Hamilton,Verstappen,Leclerc-in the long run you are not thinking as clearly as Toto would be.

I find it all quite interesting. I'd like to know what Toto really thinks about Max.... And I'm far from convinced yet that Leclerc is the real deal and '1 of the 3 best drivers'. For my money, they would be far better off bringing in Russell and 'moulding' him as a number 1. Bottas I consider to be expendable. I know that Kato you have allegiances, but I'm not convinced that Mercedes would have jumped in for Danny Ric....

[Derwent]

I think it is very sad that Lewis does not seem to have anything else in his life. Most drivers of his age have wives and kids and a normal life outside of racing. He's not had a partner since the former pussycat and he seems to float about the world like a lost soul. Perhaps racing is all he really knows and that what keeps him there? he does not need the money and could retire and take up his "cause." Everyone would then be happy.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Derwent

I think it is very sad that Lewis does not seem to have anything else in his life. Most drivers of his age have wives and kids and a normal life outside of racing. He's not had a partner since the former pussycat and he seems to float about the world like a lost soul. Perhaps racing is all he really knows and that what keeps him there? he does not need the money and could retire and take up his "cause." Everyone would then be happy.

Doesnt have anything else in life? He records music, has a fashion line, nice holidays with dogs an friends....just because he isn’t married or have a long term partner doesn’t mean he has nothing in life or is a lost soul lol.

Everyone would be happy if he retired? I wouldn’t be....it would be a sad day when the most successful f1 driver of all time retires.

He’s still the benchmark, whether you like it or not.

[S griffin]

I'm sure Lewis will have plenty to do when he retires. As you say he has things like his fashion, so I'm sure he won't be at a lose end when he calls it a day

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I find it all quite interesting. I'd like to know what Toto really thinks about Max.... And I'm far from convinced yet that Leclerc is the real deal and '1 of the 3 best drivers'. For my money, they would be far better off bringing in Russell and 'moulding' him as a number 1. Bottas I consider to be expendable. I know that Kato you have allegiances, but I'm not convinced that Mercedes would have jumped in for Danny Ric....

If you are the top team with the biggest budget you don’t want the job of “moulding” a number 1 who is not a proven race winner.As good as Russell was in Bahrain it is a big leap of faith to put those millions of eggs in that basket.Judging him on Mugello or Imola would produce a very different conclusion.
I agree that Bottas is expendable and that he is only there because it suits Lewis.He doesn’t want another Rosberg situation
in “his” team.
However it is not “his” team and he is at an age where the team should start to position itself for succession planning.It would be good to see him continue but it may not be exactly on his terms.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Alan52

If you are the top team with the biggest budget you don’t want the job of “moulding” a number 1 who is not a proven race winner.As good as Russell was in Bahrain it is a big leap of faith to put those millions of eggs in that basket.Judging him on Mugello or Imola would produce a very different conclusion.
I agree that Bottas is expendable and that he is only there because it suits Lewis.He doesn’t want another Rosberg situation
in “his” team.
However it is not “his” team and he is at an age where the team should start to position itself for succession planning.It would be good to see him continue but it may not be exactly on his terms.

Not sure where you get the idea that Bottas is there because it ‘suits Lewis’....Lewis has never shied away from having tricky teammates....there’s not many drivers that have had 3 world champions in the other car.....not even Schumacher.

I’d say it suits Mercedes more than Lewis to have a defecto number 2 rather than 2 drivers taking points off each other.

I do agree they need to start looking at succession, however as Lewis proved several times this year for instance Austria qualifying, Spain, Hungary, Turkey, he is still a cut above the rest and his talent isn’t dwindling.

The younger generation are starting to nip at the heals, but I’ve yet to see one who could mount a title challenge and handle the pressure without making mistakes like Lewis has shown

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Alan52

If you are the top team with the biggest budget you don’t want the job of “moulding” a number 1 who is not a proven race winner.As good as Russell was in Bahrain it is a big leap of faith to put those millions of eggs in that basket.Judging him on Mugello or Imola would produce a very different conclusion.

Unsurprisingly, I completely disagree. If Lewis went, Valteri would win a few races, Russell, I'll wager, would win more. Certainly enough to enable one of them to take the WDC and for Merc to easily retain the WCC. I'd say it was a perfect opportunity to have what is effectively 'one of their own' already in a situation where winning is likely to remain easy. Why do you think that Russell wouldn't have performed at Mugello or Imola?

[chunterer]

I would actually like to see, relish even how Bottas would go 'if he was let off the leash so to speak.

AFAIAC he has been employed as no.2 at the team with few occasions where he has been able to truly show his worth on his terms. When he has, he has looked very strong indeed, Unfortunately those who take results and championship position at face value see an inferior driver who just gets whipped every year. The nadir was his 'Turkey' weekend when for a variety of reasons he ended up looking like one. Then there was the Russell match up in Bahrain where he was perceived to have come out second best.

Whilst I have little doubt Russell is definitely a future serial winner, I am quite confident that if Bottas was given the target of 'one year to do it or you're out' I reckon he would surprise a lot of his detractors. Trouble is he may not get that chance. Whilst I don't think he is at Lewis's level, he is a lot better than perceived.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I would actually like to see, relish even how Bottas would go 'if he was let off the leash so to speak.

AFAIAC he has been employed as no.2 at the team with few occasions where he has been able to truly show his worth on his terms. When he has, he has looked very strong indeed, Unfortunately those who take results and championship position at face value see an inferior driver who just gets whipped every year. The nadir was his 'Turkey' weekend when for a variety of reasons he ended up looking like one. Then there was the Russell match up in Bahrain where he was perceived to have come out second best.

Whilst I have little doubt Russell is definitely a future serial winner, I am quite confident that if Bottas was given the target of 'one year to do it or you're out' I reckon he would surprise a lot of his detractors. Trouble is he may not get that chance. Whilst I don't think he is at Lewis's level, he is a lot better than perceived.

I'm puzzled why you think Bottas has been kept on a leash by Merc? I've seen little evidence of that, personally. He's just been beaten by a better driver for most of the time. And in Bahrain, I don't think he was just perceived to have come out second best, was he? I see Bottas as a decent driver who can win races in the best car on the few occasions each season that he is able to get the better of his more accomplished and skilful teammate. If there is a 'leash', it is the mental 'leash' of actually knowing you're not as good as your teammate.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I would actually like to see, relish even how Bottas would go 'if he was let off the leash so to speak.

AFAIAC he has been employed as no.2 at the team with few occasions where he has been able to truly show his worth on his terms. When he has, he has looked very strong indeed, Unfortunately those who take results and championship position at face value see an inferior driver who just gets whipped every year. The nadir was his 'Turkey' weekend when for a variety of reasons he ended up looking like one. Then there was the Russell match up in Bahrain where he was perceived to have come out second best.

Whilst I have little doubt Russell is definitely a future serial winner, I am quite confident that if Bottas was given the target of 'one year to do it or you're out' I reckon he would surprise a lot of his detractors. Trouble is he may not get that chance. Whilst I don't think he is at Lewis's level, he is a lot better than perceived.

What leash? Prove it....your ‘filter’ is showing through once again.

Multiple times over the last few years we have seen both Mercedes drivers allowed to race, allowed to challenge each other in qualifying and sometimes Bottas comes out on top.

If Mercedes have him on a leash, they aren’t doing a very good job.

A leash is what Ferrari and Schumacher had over his teammates.....

[gert]

I think Bottas was beaten by a better driver, not necessarily hold back by Merdedes.

If that better driver is not around anymore, Bottas could surprise us.

If they wanted or would have to start with Bottas/Russell, that would also change the team dynamics and maybe that would be enough to change the end result.

You can't give both drivers the optimal strategy or develop car or setup in the optimal wasy for both drivers.
There will always be a bit of a compromise, or #2 will have to live with something that is very very good for him but just a bit better suited to the other one.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by gert

I think Bottas was beaten by a better driver, not necessarily hold back by Merdedes.

If that better driver is not around anymore, Bottas could surprise us.

If they wanted or would have to start with Bottas/Russell, that would also change the team dynamics and maybe that would be enough to change the end result.

You can't give both drivers the optimal strategy or develop car or setup in the optimal wasy for both drivers.
There will always be a bit of a compromise, or #2 will have to live with something that is very very good for him but just a bit better suited to the other one.

This is true, but the best drivers adapt...there was a great podcast a while back with Mike Hakinen saying as much. It’s how the likes of hamilton beat Alonso, Leclerc beat Vettel, Max beat Danny....they come in and stamp their authority so the team starts to evolve the car around them

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm puzzled why you think Bottas has been kept on a leash by Merc? I've seen little evidence of that, personally. He's just been beaten by a better driver for most of the time. And in Bahrain, I don't think he was just perceived to have come out second best, was he? I see Bottas as a decent driver who can win races in the best car on the few occasions each season that he is able to get the better of his more accomplished and skilful teammate. If there is a 'leash', it is the mental 'leash' of actually knowing you're not as good as your teammate.

It doesn't surprise me you're puzzled. Short of MB including you into their meetings to say they're favouring Hamilton but not to tell the public, you've not once acknowledge any post on any thread making a suffienct point.

- The anti competitive radio messaages.
- The anti competitive pit strategies.
- The failure to explain Bottas use of tyres, or to do somehting to combat it (An alternative pit strategy for instance?)
- MB (More of a profit corporation selling cars as opposed to a car manufacturer) even changed the paint of their cars to get behind Hamilton's political stance.

And you're puzzled?

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Yes the car is damn good, but you can’t just rely on engineers to do that, you require feedback from great drivers to help develop cars, win in them so funds can get put back into the team.

Not really nowadays. MB isn't the Williams team from the 80s. They have more info than the driver can comprehend.

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

The younger generation are starting to nip at the heals, but I’ve yet to see one who could mount a title challenge and handle the pressure without making mistakes like Lewis has shown

Almost the whole history of F1 has guys winning c'ships in the best car. Good luck finding a guy finishing 5th in a car outside the top 4 in the wcc.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Hamilton and Bottas share a statistic in their careers.

Both have twice driven car that were 3rd in the wcc. Both finished 4th and 5th in those respective seasons.

[Greem]

On multiple occasions across multiple seasons both Mercedes drivers have moaned about some form of perceived favouritism, whether it be pit strategy, tyres, track position for qualifying or the breakfast pastry tray - that seems to me to be a team that has the balance just about right.

Referring back to Hamilton's value to the parent company: in 2014, so about a hundred years ago, I was operating the light panel on what's now Hamilton Straight at Silverstone, in front of the grandstands, opposite the bottom end of the pit lane. On the Friday during a break a group of about 15 to 20 lads, roughly 20-25 years old, stood behind me. Typical F1 fans they were not - they were from Sarf Lahndan, round Brixton/Camberwell/Peckham area, a mix of races/styles/haircuts and so on. Very much not your stereotypical F1 fan, yet very much not your stereotypical Brixtonite either. Not a gang, as such, either, despite some of the bling they had on show! They'd never been to a racing circuit before, much less F1, and they were all there for one reason: Lewis.

I had a long chat with them over the course of the weekend as they kept coming back; they were genuinely blown away by the GP2 cars but the speed and handling of the F1 cars completely cooked their noggins.

Two of the group had pretty decent jobs (I forget what now) and both had chosen Mercedes company cars. Because of Lewis. The rest of them hankered after Mercedes cars, for the same reason.

I wonder, all these years later, whether they're still watching and more of them are driving Mercs?

That's the value he brings - it's hardly a quantifiable thing to most of us, but I bet the Daimler board can write it down in €€€!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

It doesn't surprise me you're puzzled. Short of MB including you into their meetings to say they're favouring Hamilton but not to tell the public, you've not once acknowledge any post on any thread making a suffienct point.

- The anti competitive radio messaages.
- The anti competitive pit strategies.
- The failure to explain Bottas use of tyres, or to do somehting to combat it (An alternative pit strategy for instance?)
- MB (More of a profit corporation selling cars as opposed to a car manufacturer) even changed the paint of their cars to get behind Hamilton's political stance.

And you're puzzled?


Not really nowadays. MB isn't the Williams team from the 80s. They have more info than the driver can comprehend.



Almost the whole history of F1 has guys winning c'ships in the best car. Good luck finding a guy finishing 5th in a car outside the top 4 in the wcc.

The team puts both drivers on the same strategy....if that’s not giving them equal treatment I don’t know what is....more often than no Hamilton comes out on top, even if he’s behind at the first stop.

Bottas has the same equipment, same strategy, same opportunity...it’s up to him to use it to beat Lewis, not for Mercedes to give him a leg up. They don’t care which way around it is, if they finish 1-2 it’s the same points for the manufacturer

Flip it around, you’d be peeved if Hamilton was in second and given a better strategy then Bottas wouldn’t you.....

This politics BS again....when is equality about politics? It’s a human right, one which we should all be getting behind,...and indeed all the teams changed their liveries to do so.

Of course most of the time drivers in the best cars win....it’s always been so, but to get into the best teams you have to prove you’re the best too....they aren’t going to continually employ someone not capable of utilising the car are they....

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Hamilton and Bottas share a statistic in their careers.

Both have twice driven car that were 3rd in the wcc. Both finished 4th and 5th in those respective seasons.

Fascinating lol....

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

The team puts both drivers on the same strategy....if that’s not giving them equal treatment I don’t know what is...

This is what you don't seem to get. The "same" doesn't mean "equal".

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

.more often than no Hamilton comes out on top, even if he’s behind at the first stop.

Bottas has the same equipment, same strategy, same opportunity...it’s up to him to use it to beat Lewis, not for Mercedes to give him a leg up.

This is what I'm saying that MB is not Williams form the 80s. It's an outdated view. A there's a lot of knowledge MB have and its tailored to Hamilton. It like that in RB, and it's why you see such wide margins between their drivers.

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

They don’t care which way around it is, if they finish 1-2 it’s the same points for the manufacturer

Yes they do.

Same points for the manufacturer, but not the same PR points.

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Flip it around, you’d be peeved if Hamilton was in second and given a better strategy then Bottas wouldn’t you.....

I'd be shocked because it'd be the first time it would've happened if it meant Bottas picked of a win against Hamilton.