TVR Griffiths 200/400 and their Chassis Numbers

[terence]

Originally Posted by Flyingfox_01

Jeremy, isnt it about time the FIA started on the E Types and Cobras,and give the Griffith a wide burst

And what's wrong with those car's?

[NHSL]

This is indeed a fascinating thread and I suspect a lot of people are following it. Just going back to post 195 (I am sorry I don't know how you incorporate a previous post in your reply) neither car 60 or 51 are Le Mans cars from period, and 51 isn't Rob Grant's either.

Car 60 is Philip Hooper's Grantura, he is from Antibes lucky bloke, and he posts a lot of his incar footage on youtube, well worth a look. He has just posted a lap of the 'ring with Ron Simons, the Nordschliefe instructor, driving it at the Oldtimer Marathon last year. He posts as "tvrphil" His car is the ex Paddy Gaston car (often known as XPG 1) with a wealth of period race history, some international, including a club championship or two with Rod Longton back in about 1969/70. Car now has a Mass engine and has competed at most Le Mans classics and Legends recently.

Rob Grant's car is WNK 191 aka Trevor - geddit? He is an old friend of mine (40 years now) and he and I used Trevor to do three Pirelli Marathons in 1989, 90 and 91, which proved that a Grantura, or quite honestly any TVR, should not be your first choice for a rally car. Although we always got to the end, shaken, stirred and deafened. Amongst other things we then did the first two Spa six hours in Trevor in 1993 and 1994. I roped in another friend, the late Robert Baker-Carr - sadly missed - to share the drive, well, more realistically to share the expense. We finished both years without any problems at all. Rob retains WNK 191 to this day, and it is occasionally seen out , doing the first Le Mans Classic in 2002 for example, co-driven by Anthony Binnington.

Robert B-C and I were so fired up by our drives in Rob's car that we each bought one for ourselves. Robert bought one from Fred Boothby, and didn't do much with it before he sold it to Karl Schlagenauf who got CMS to rebuild it completely, and that car, often known as Fred, is currently owned by Joe Ward and goes very well.

9299 VC, Car 51 in the pictures, is the one I bought, and Esper, it is also one of the few with an original TVR chassis and body. My co-owner and I have had a lot of fun with it over the last 10 years or so, including LMC in 2002, and most of Carol Spagg's Gent Driver races. It has proved to be very reliable and has a Mass engine.

Only one Grantura ever actually ran at Le Mans in the race proper, in 1962, but by the time you had finished a coffee and a croissant, it was out. As ever with these things there are quite a few contenders to be the actual car, but none of the above. Rob did have a letter from TVR at one point but he doesn't put much store by it. If you want a thread that will run for years, just start one called "Which was the real TVR Grantura that ran at Le Mans" and then stand well back. When car 60, car 51 and Trevor all did LMC together in 2002 there were three times as many TVRs on track at the same time than had ever, ever, run there! We all finished all 4 races too.

Sorry to ramble on but I'm nearly there:

Post 138. Hi Mike, just one small point, the Mongoose wasn't owned by Colin Vandervell. Colin was Tony "Vanwall" Vandervell's son and was a very successful driver in the early 70's. The Mongoose Vandervell was Clive, who was the son of Tony's brother Ned, who was a stockbroker.

I have mentioned Rod Longton and Anthony Binnington in this post and both are more widely known as successful long term MGB racers. I point this out because I understand it is obligatory to mention MGBs in every post.

Back to the actual thread. A original Griffith is a MK3 Grantura with a Ford V8 stuffed in it, undeveloped, unaltered and a complete death trap. If you ever race one in that spec, say a fond farewell to your friends and family before every outing.

With modern race preparation they can be turned into very potent, Cobra and E type beating, long distance racers. New ones are being built all the time, and it is simply a question of how much you think you can get away with, how much evidence you can dig up to support your latest mods and how well the cars get inspected.

Race organisers this year are going to be very welcoming to anyone who can utter the magic words, "..I'll go and get my cheque book" so I suspect if you want to build up a bit of track time with a dodgy Griff, 2009 is going to be your year.

Lovely sound though, I wish I could afford the petrol.

Sorry for the long post, I have been snowed in for a few days and running out of things to do!

[terence]

Thanks for putting that right,it has been a while since I had any dealings with either car!.Glad you had the sense to get a decent engine in the car.
I know Rob very well,stayed with him on a few occaisions but Trevor never came up in any conversations.The white car I mistook for the Daniel Nash version.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by Flyingfox_01

Jeremy, isnt it about time the FIA started on the E Types and Cobras,and give the Griffith a wide burst

Perhaps because E Types and Cobras have a long and honourable History in Motor Sport in the 60's. The Griffiths is ,like the Sunbeam Tiger a car that did not work until the wonders of the now gone ''Geoscan'' solved the issues with the car.
Sadly the prospect of a 289 engined car proved irrestable to those who could not buy a Cobra , but failed to understand why their proud acquistion was not as quick.
The funny thing about Historic Motorsport is that it is called Historic. As in another thread perhaps the concept of History should play some small part in the sport.
But hey..........if you are too late or too poor to buy the right car but have to play.......
PS Good to see Nick posting , I knew Clive Vandervell when he was running the Mongoose but always understood from him at the time that the car had been lengthened by about three or four inches to make it work.

[terence]

Interesting,I'll check it tomorrow.

[terence]

There is a pleasant difference between the Griffith/Grantura to the lengthened later chassis of say,the Vixen.Always thought the Vixen is a very capable car.

[Flyingfox_01]

Originally Posted by terence bower

And what's wrong with those car's?

They have big modified arch's (bigger than in period) i have photographic evidence to support this.

The E Types are supposed to be either all Aluminium bodied inc floor pan or all steel not a mixture of the two materials.
FiA officials know about this and are waiting to pounce so i'm told.
one competitor refused to allow officials to inspect there engine at a meeting last year!!! and it wasn't a Griff
The list goes on!!!!!!
And people think Griffs are iffy

I've been involved in FiA Historic racing for 20 years and have seen it all.

Its about time TVR Griffith was given a break, everybody who is in the know, knows what we have to do now to please the officials.

By the way who's Kirby

[Simon Hadfield]

Well I've been doing this for the thick end of thirty years and I still come across things I've never seen before!

[Jeremy Hall]

You and me side by side Simon-you're right.

[terence]

Personally its been 36yrs,and yes I agree with both of you,people seem to be just a little more "inventive" in the way they read rules these day's.
Flying fox,stop giving Kirby the Grey Mug!

[Flyingfox_01]

Terry still dont know who Kirby is!!!!!!!

[terence]

Yes I realise you are not who I thought you were,your 20yrs in historics was the give-away. Sorry for the confusion.

[AGD A105/6]

Think I should make some riposte to Jeremy's statement "The Griffiths is ,like the Sunbeam Tiger a car that did not work"...

I've left my anorak at home so I'll have to borrow some history from Mike Taylor's book. The 1964 Le Mans was admittedly unfortunate, and caused Rootes to focus on rallying the Tiger with some success. Despite lack of works encouragement, Tigers did become quite competitive, especially in the USA where most Tigers went, eg the Doane Spencer Tiger: Winning Class B of the Santa Barbara Road Races….Qualifying alongside Phil Hill in a 427 Cobra at Candlestick Park…Winning the Mosport 200 Production Sport Car race (ahead of a Shelby 350 and a Cobra amongst others), winning Class B again at Stockton Road Races, and at Salt Lake City…Winning overall at Willow Springs and 3rd at Riverside Raceway. If driver Jim Adams hadn’t broken his leg mid-season the car would probably have won the championship. Other successes included 1st in the “Small Bore” GT class in the Daytona Continental, and a 1st in class B at Danville.

This side of the pond, after some good results in 1965 Bernard Unett was just pipped to the 1966 Autosport trophy outright by John Miles in an Elan, but won his class, including a 3rd place in the finale at Snetterton, ahead of Gerry Marshall in a TVR Griffith (which I expect someone can identify?)

Not too shabby for a car that doesn't work !!!!

[terence]

The Marshall car would have been 200/04.anorac? not really,just something I knew The Tiger suffers the same short wheelbase problem,if only they had both had an extra 4/4 inches,could have been a much different story involved now.

[FISCracer]

Originally Posted by terence bower

No on both counts,]
[A, The date being 66 and B] because the car did not qualify.


As a PS Flying Fox, how's Kirby?

Quite right Terry. As I said I don't know of any evidence of an 1800S competing in period but I'm willing to be told differently.

Jeremy, I thought that only about 50 MKIII Granturas were built, roughly 25 with 1600 MGA engines and 25 with 1800 MGB engines. Assuming running an 1800 block in car which originally had a 1600cc engine is acceptable (a bit like running a 302/351 instead of a 289 or a 4.2/4.5 rather than a 3.8) I can't see how bodywork can be free if fewer than 100 cars were produced. If bodywork is free why the issue over Griffith width as long as it is within the homologated 1625mm?

BTW there is a chassis difference between a Grantura MKIII and and 1800S. The latter is wider allowing the use of a 4 synchro and/or overdrive gearbox neither of which was homologated. Not that anyone would do that...........

[terence]

Bit off topic I know but was the Climax Engined Lightwieght ever homologated?

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

Quite right Terry. As I said I don't know of any evidence of an 1800S competing in period but I'm willing to be told differently.

Jeremy, I thought that only about 50 MKIII Granturas were built, roughly 25 with 1600 MGA engines and 25 with 1800 MGB engines. Assuming running an 1800 block in car which originally had a 1600cc engine is acceptable (a bit like running a 302/351 instead of a 289 or a 4.2/4.5 rather than a 3.8) I can't see how bodywork can be free if fewer than 100 cars were produced. If bodywork is free why the issue over Griffith width as long as it is within the homologated 1625mm?

......

No one said that manufacturers told the truth when they homologated cars, it was not until the seventies when a physical count to make sure started to be undertaken-and there are some stories about that. I do not understand your reference to a homologated width of the car, the bodywork may be a copy of any complete configuration which in itself was not a homologated dimension. So if it has fat arches in a proven International photo from Period F then it can copy that size-in itself unmeasured in period probably.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by Andrew Davenall

Think I should make some riposte to Jeremy's statement "The Griffiths is ,like the Sunbeam Tiger a car that did not work"...

I've left my anorak at home so I'll have to borrow some history from Mike Taylor's book. The 1964 Le Mans was admittedly unfortunate, and caused Rootes to focus on rallying the Tiger with some success. Despite lack of works encouragement, Tigers did become quite competitive, especially in the USA where most Tigers went, eg the Doane Spencer Tiger: Winning Class B of the Santa Barbara Road Races….Qualifying alongside Phil Hill in a 427 Cobra at Candlestick Park…Winning the Mosport 200 Production Sport Car race (ahead of a Shelby 350 and a Cobra amongst others), winning Class B again at Stockton Road Races, and at Salt Lake City…Winning overall at Willow Springs and 3rd at Riverside Raceway. If driver Jim Adams hadn’t broken his leg mid-season the car would probably have won the championship. Other successes included 1st in the “Small Bore” GT class in the Daytona Continental, and a 1st in class B at Danville.

This side of the pond, after some good results in 1965 Bernard Unett was just pipped to the 1966 Autosport trophy outright by John Miles in an Elan, but won his class, including a 3rd place in the finale at Snetterton, ahead of Gerry Marshall in a TVR Griffith (which I expect someone can identify?)

Not too shabby for a car that doesn't work !!!!

Fine but the US results were SCCA with cars running LATiger addition not FIA cars

[Simon Hadfield]

And in the other place now..... a picture of a Grantura at Sebring in '62 driven by Mark Donohue! (Although its given as a 1600).

[Flyingfox_01]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Yes I realise you are not who I thought you were,your 20yrs in historics was the give-away. Sorry for the confusion.

Ok thanks for that, you had me confused for a while,

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

And in the other place now..... a picture of a Grantura at Sebring in '62 driven by Mark Donohue! (Although its given as a 1600).

I believe that Mark was involved with a number of TVRs atthe start of his career. He raced car number 51, a Grantura at Sebring 12 Hrs in 1963 too. These early cars would have been powered by the MGA engine so would have been 1600cc.



Then of course came the Griff.

[Dinkel]

Originally Posted by esper

Dinkel , I am absolutely flattered to see my grantura , (one of the last real 100% original granturas, body and chassis) on this very pristigious thread but a griffith has a bonet bulge , always. Some are a big big bulge with a little bonnet but thats another story!

I know! But aren't they all lovely. Spa6 is booked in already BTW

[terence]

I should hope it is Dink.

[jellison]

Originally Posted by Dinkel

I know! But aren't they all lovely. Spa6 is booked in already BTW

Dink - building mine to beat Boss/Cheng at the 1 hour at some point in the future (hopefully inside 2 years) Jelly

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by jellison

Dink - building mine to beat Boss/Cheng at the 1 hour at some point in the future (hopefully inside 2 years) Jelly

Jon,

Your car and your right to do what you want with it but it seems a shame that as you seem to have a pukka 200 series that you are building it to hot-rod spec when there are so few original spec 200s. Isn't your target to beat a modern kit car anyway so why start with a historically valid car?