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Old 11 Feb 2019, 21:29 (Ref:3883373)   #1
ferguson
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ferguson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
RS2600 Rear suspension

Can anyone tell me if a 73 RS2600 Group 2 car used a sway bar in the rear in conjunction with the Watts linkage? Thank you.
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Old 12 Feb 2019, 08:38 (Ref:3883469)   #2
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Hi ferguson. If you go here http://historicdb.fia.com you can download the homologation form # 1609 free consultation non official use only. If you look at appendix J end of period and K I guess you can find if you're allowed to fit a sway bar unless anti roll purpose only.
If you're in the process of building this http://www.borremanscollection.com/m...8#.XGKFHi17Qhs a nice recreation was displayed at NEC few weeks ago on the stand of a renown English specialist May be you'll be asked to bring proof of period. I guess you're not building a AWD model?
You've got a PM.

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Old 12 Feb 2019, 12:21 (Ref:3883497)   #3
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Appendix J 1972 Art 260 (n) states that a ‘stabiliser’ (includes ARB, radius arms, panhard) is allowed to be fitted even if not originally present. It also says ‘even if this stabiliser serves other purposes’.

So no reason why an ARB wouldn’t have been fitted, and I’m pretty sure they were used. Certainly the RS3100 had one at the back.

That of course doesn’t answer your question definitively. I will have a search through a few Ford books just in case there is a period pic....

And if you haven’t got conclusive proof by the end of March, I’ll look under all the RS2600s racing at Barcelona and have a count up......
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Old 12 Feb 2019, 13:06 (Ref:3883509)   #4
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ferguson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Rear sway bar

Thanks Mike and Gerard for the reply. I talked with a guy I used to work for over here and he raised the question so I was just wondering if it was needed.
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Old 12 Feb 2019, 13:13 (Ref:3883512)   #5
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I found a good size cut away drawing in ‘Momentaufnahmen’ of a ‘72 car and you can see the radius arms, Watts linkage, dummy leaf springs, but no ARB to be seen.

No more conclusive of course, and I will try and remember to check out the Capris at Barca.....
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Old 12 Feb 2019, 15:49 (Ref:3883554)   #6
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Mike is much more knowledgeable than me of course c'est normal je suis plus jeune de quelques mois! Among the very nice parts spotted at Birmingham, the wonderful hubs for peg drive and a very nice air duct for the intake, breathing from the upper part of the front end gril then going under the bonnet. Using a Mk1 facelift front helps sometimes…

Mike, the dummy rear leaf spring was plastic if I'm correct? In this case, to be compliant either the plastic has been homologated or legally used in period or you have to use steel as stated by appendix. I'm wrong here? if wrong, correct me and I'll buy a beer!
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Old 12 Feb 2019, 16:01 (Ref:3883564)   #7
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Mike is much more knowledgeable than me of course c'est normal je suis plus jeune de quelques mois!
Mike, the dummy rear leaf spring was plastic if I'm correct? In this case, to be compliant either the plastic has been homologated or legally used in period or you have to use steel as stated by appendix. I'm wrong here? if wrong, correct me and I'll buy a beer!
I was hoping you knew more about Capris than me! That’s why I waited before replying.....

Yes, the dummy springs were some sort of plastic or fibreglass. Likely we’ve moved on in technology so far since then that the material is no longer available! Don’t tell anyone but the ones on my car are plywood....

Anyway, we’re going off topic.
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Old 12 Feb 2019, 16:08 (Ref:3883566)   #8
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I was hoping you knew more about Capris than me! That’s why I waited before replying.....
Héhéhé! This one is good too, naughty boy. Can you believe we have a someone here recommending to make fake leaf springs with carton wrapped in US tape? Yes fiberglas. Off topic or border line, WTH, its so good to see we're all driven by the same passion. Border? Uhhhh
The replica of the Stewart/ Cevert car is an amazing piece of kit. Even though the heated windscreen is not perfectly adapted… Not only mine!
Anyway, I'll be happy to buy a beer or two!
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Old 12 Feb 2019, 17:24 (Ref:3883584)   #9
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Another advice "linked" to the thread is never ever have a too low rear ride height. Take care if you just copied a car from pics, it is said by some who know that the upper tramp bars were slightly too short to work properly… Before fitting the shocks, make sure the axle can move freely on all its travel. Same thing when adjusting the Watts Right Mike?
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Old 13 Feb 2019, 11:31 (Ref:3883775)   #10
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Duddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDuddha should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
There were no anti roll bar in period and you can't use one today either, this for the RS2600 or RS3100.
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Old 13 Feb 2019, 11:51 (Ref:3883783)   #11
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There were no anti roll bar in period and you can't use one today either, this for the RS2600 or RS3100.
Thanks. My research on the latter involved checking the 1/18 scale die-cast model I’ve got. It has one- wonder where they got that from!
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Old 13 Feb 2019, 12:15 (Ref:3883788)   #12
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ferguson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
RS 2600 Rear suspension

Thanks Guys very enjoyable reading and good info too. I have an e mail in with Ric to see what he might say. My understanding of the FIA rules was that if the car had it which the Capri had originally at least over here that it was okay to use for racing. Looking at some of the pics of Group 2s going at speed around corners it looks as though the rear wheels have much more movement than the frt end which leads me to believe that they weren't running a rear bar.
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Old 13 Feb 2019, 13:25 (Ref:3883811)   #13
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Thanks Guys very enjoyable reading and good info too. I have an e mail in with Ric to see what he might say. My understanding of the FIA rules was that if the car had it which the Capri had originally at least over here that it was okay to use for racing. Looking at some of the pics of Group 2s going at speed around corners it looks as though the rear wheels have much more movement than the frt end which leads me to believe that they weren't running a rear bar.
True but you need the period evidence and pictures to detail the practice back in the days. I have seen a lot about Capris in Europe or USA and the works car did not run any rear bar that's for sure. Even some of the later experimental and supermodified and so on didn't run them so why would you?
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Old 13 Feb 2019, 13:46 (Ref:3883816)   #14
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ferguson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
RS 2600 Rear suspension

Thank you Duddha for the info. It's not that I would run a ARB in the rear I just wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing as I have no ARB in the rear at this time. Thank you for your input Duddha. Not alot of Capris running over here. My old boss Tivvy Shenton didn't think it would but I needed more input to be certain.
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Old 13 Feb 2019, 16:17 (Ref:3883869)   #15
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Ferguson, as to what works driver said about this car:
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...r-vs-batmobile
Have the front end working is piece of cake, have the rear end too, but having both working well together is another story. Unless you think that guys like Fittipaldi or Fitzpatrick didn't know much about racing cars…*HTP'd and compliant cars are competitive and fantastic to drive here, you and your folks will have fun with. Enjoy!
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Old 13 Feb 2019, 17:38 (Ref:3883888)   #16
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Ferguson, just now your name rings a bell in my frozen brain. We already had a chat, was it one or two years ago? You still have some Capri very rare parts, including a Ferguson transmission, right? Your daily is a Capri euro version or a Mercury may be (rusty because of road salt)? And you do know Montpelier for sure !
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Old 13 Feb 2019, 17:43 (Ref:3883889)   #17
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ferguson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
RS 2600 Rear suspension

Again good reading. I have read and understood that the Capri was a hand full to race. My old boss was one of the people that looked after Fitzpatrick's Capri. In my mind I love to just look at the car. It has some great lines.
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Old 13 Feb 2019, 18:54 (Ref:3883910)   #18
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Well put together the Weslake RS can be enjoyable as you can see here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0POTtCCig4
Quite different from a Grp1 3.0 I must admit… Depending on what you have/want a 3100 is the weapon of choice. And Ric is an enthusiast totally Capri'mad! Enjoyable, knowledgable and great driver. Have a look to the hubs he is machining at CNC, may be under the name of Weslake the company he bought a while ago.
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Old 13 Feb 2019, 19:04 (Ref:3883915)   #19
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ferguson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
RS 2600 Rear suspension

Yes Gerard We exchanged messages less than a year ago I think. I have a complete but extremely rusted 72 Ferguson and also a 73 Capri that someone installed a turbo on in 1975 reminiscent of the May turbo.
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Old 13 Feb 2019, 19:10 (Ref:3883918)   #20
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ferguson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
RS 2600 Rear suspension

Yes Gerard I know Montpelier. Its about 30 miles from here.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 07:32 (Ref:3884318)   #21
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. I have read and understood that the Capri was a hand full to race.
Was that just the RS2600 or does that apply to all Capris? Why was it tricky and how does it compare to others of the same era?

The Capri was a very popular Group 1/ 1.5 etc race car - a bit surprising if it was so tricky to drive.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 07:42 (Ref:3884322)   #22
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Andy we're talking about RS 2600 Grp2. The base is the MK1 and face lift. What is said is that in time the works cars suffered a lack of development. Things went better with the 3100, same base but more development.
BTCC Capris were/are based on the Mk2/3 chassis offering a slightly better track/wheelbase ratio. The combination between narrow tires and less power is less demanding.

When guys like Fittipaldi and Fitzpatrick say they were tricky, either you think they are pussies or you try to find a better suspension set up; dont you think so? Or you buy a CSL! Strangely I can't find any comment from Sir Jackie about that but I guess bauble can tell you why.

I know you'll have a much better opinion now, just a wait a minute and you'll know more and better…*
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 07:44 (Ref:3884323)   #23
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'course next post is really wise, its miiiiine!
https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...n-capri-rs2600
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 08:56 (Ref:3884333)   #24
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Sorry I've not been clear Andy. You probably will forgive me, now you know how bad my english is. As were the first 2600 RS, at Jarama they couldn't match a good Escort using almost the same parts. Lack of development and, from John F words, terrible ambiance in the team at one point.
From you-know-who words, you must not go to low with the rear end, this creates a conflict between the center of gravity and the roll center. We have almost the same thing with our 951's, mine is soft at rear and I use the Cup rear ride height if not slightly higher .
The RS used a four links axle plus a Watts linkage, no need for a sway bar IMHO.
Why the ex-BTCC cars based on Mk2/3 chassis are so good, is hard to understand. If you look at the rear end, the Atlas axle is only held by two 8 mm bolts going cross the leaves springs, the four original U bolts and a thin sway bar. Hence the term of "living axle"! Dont ask me more, they are much more competent people here and I love this car which sometimes blinds me. Les yeux de Rodrigue pour Chimène !
The results in actual HTC series leads me to think that a Mk3 Grp1,5 (de Borman is a very good driver) could be very close to a 2600 Grp2 if you used the same size of slicks tires.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 09:04 (Ref:3884340)   #25
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At the risk of derailing Ferguson’s thread, main reason the RS2600 was ‘a handful’ was lack of rear spoiler! Terrible rear end lift at speed. Homologated for the RS3100.....
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