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Old 12 Oct 2014, 20:47 (Ref:3464190)   #201
Koenigsegg
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How long did the fire last?

Asking because almost all of us thought that the SRT Viper GT3-R from Ben Keating was a write-off due to the fire at Sebring, but it wasn't. Chassis was still okay. Maybe it could be the same with the Lotus.
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Old 12 Oct 2014, 21:05 (Ref:3464198)   #202
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tux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Yeah i think the tub probably would have been unharmed, its all the other stuff, wiring, bodywork etc.
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 06:29 (Ref:3464320)   #203
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The visible damage was limited to the rear left of the car, the rest of the bodywork appeared to be undamaged. Difficult to tell what damage is inside the car. I guess the important thing is if the tub is damaged.
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 06:31 (Ref:3464321)   #204
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Two guys on Mike's Facebook page are saying it's not the same tub as the P2 ...
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 06:49 (Ref:3464324)   #205
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Racecar-engineering has a write up on the lmp's including the Lotus. You can see theyre in a situation where theyre basically scraping by.
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 08:23 (Ref:3464365)   #206
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Two guys on Mike's Facebook page are saying it's not the same tub as the P2 ...
The team always denied that the tub is same as on the T128. Sam Collins pics on RCE showed clearly that the front bulkhead and the front supension is identical to the T128 monocoque. Also the top air-scoop seams to be the same. What we have never seen is the rear bulkhead of the monocoque and there I think it is different as the AER engine neads for sure different mounting points. Maybe they have changed some more minor things. I am quite sure they have built a new monocoque which is still in maybe 90 % identical to the T128 Adess one but not to 100 %
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 10:54 (Ref:3464432)   #207
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I was told the tub is new and has been build in the UK...
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 10:56 (Ref:3464433)   #208
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It didn't burn for as long as the Riley Viper, but it burned for a good minutes.
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 11:03 (Ref:3464435)   #209
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to me, if

A. fire damaged only bodywork:
lotus can be in grid at shangai if the team has some spare part. But option too optimistic.

B. fire damaged bodywork, engine, exhausts, transmission and suspensions:
very unlikely will be in grid at shangai but could be ready for bahrain

C. like B but fire damaged also carbon tub and/or subframes:
end of the season.
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 13:11 (Ref:3464481)   #210
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I don't expect the car (is it still a Lotus?) back at all.
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 13:41 (Ref:3464488)   #211
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Racecar Engineer says Caterham F1 cars which raced at the Japanese Grand Prix and Russian Grand Prix are not being sent back to the teams base at Leafield, England instead they will be prepared for the Grand Prix of the Americas at the Kolles-Kodewa facility in Greding. Perhaps this fire-to-the-ground wasn't too bad for Mr Kolles. He got space available on his garage!
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 14:50 (Ref:3464522)   #212
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Sorry, Bing link to the map doesnt work
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=s57...80&form=LMLTCC

Haha, it works. Looks big enough for 3 cars, right?

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Old 13 Oct 2014, 17:11 (Ref:3464579)   #213
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The Caterham info likely belongs in the F1 forum, but overall it shouldn't surprise. Given Kolles is an "advisor" to the new owners of Caterham F1 and his ownership of Kodewa and that I believe the Kodewa facility was the base for HRT F1 at one point in time. I can't remember who said this, maybe Kolles, or someone else on the new ownership team, said it was a mistake to keep Caterham F1 at the old facility after the buyout. I assume that the facility had a mixture of stuff owned by the new and old owners (given the drama around seized items that has taken place at that location). Also at the Japanese GP, Caterham parked a car after the race start purely to save it due to lack of spares. Who knows how many more races they will show up at.

Back to the Lotus prototype...

I am curious about the fire damage. Given what I saw, I have a hard time imagining that they didn't have some type of tub damage, but who knows. I also am curious about the tub for the P1/01 (aka T129). Is it, or is it not using the same Adess tub from the T128? RCE has photos that show the front to be identical (or nearly so) to the T128, but I have also read elsewhere that it is not the T128 tub, but rather an evolution of the T128 (with more substantial changes to the rear to facilitate the LMP1 engine). I am not sure who to believe.

Regardless, they might need another tub regardless of it's source. If it is a T128 tub, are any available? If not a T128 tub then how many of the newer tubs were created and who did the fabrication work (I assume not Kodewa, so would it be Adess or someone else?) Also, if it is an evolution of the T128 tub, I would assume that Kodewa owns the T128 intellectual property and that issues between Adess and Kodewa has been resolved?

I probably need to scan this thread to see if the heritage and other construction questions have already been answered.

Richard
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 17:57 (Ref:3464595)   #214
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The Caterham info likely belongs in the F1 forum, but overall it shouldn't surprise. Given Kolles is an "advisor" to the new owners of Caterham F1 and his ownership of Kodewa and that I believe the Kodewa facility was the base for HRT F1 at one point in time. I can't remember who said this, maybe Kolles, or someone else on the new ownership team, said it was a mistake to keep Caterham F1 at the old facility after the buyout. I assume that the facility had a mixture of stuff owned by the new and old owners (given the drama around seized items that has taken place at that location). Also at the Japanese GP, Caterham parked a car after the race start purely to save it due to lack of spares. Who knows how many more races they will show up at.

Back to the Lotus prototype...

I am curious about the fire damage. Given what I saw, I have a hard time imagining that they didn't have some type of tub damage, but who knows. I also am curious about the tub for the P1/01 (aka T129). Is it, or is it not using the same Adess tub from the T128? RCE has photos that show the front to be identical (or nearly so) to the T128, but I have also read elsewhere that it is not the T128 tub, but rather an evolution of the T128 (with more substantial changes to the rear to facilitate the LMP1 engine). I am not sure who to believe.

Regardless, they might need another tub regardless of it's source. If it is a T128 tub, are any available? If not a T128 tub then how many of the newer tubs were created and who did the fabrication work (I assume not Kodewa, so would it be Adess or someone else?) Also, if it is an evolution of the T128 tub, I would assume that Kodewa owns the T128 intellectual property and that issues between Adess and Kodewa has been resolved?

I probably need to scan this thread to see if the heritage and other construction questions have already been answered.

Richard
At the moment we all don't know if the tub is damaged or not. I think the chance is not too low that is not damaged by the fire but a lot of other things like bodywork, wiring, engine acillarities and so on. So the team has a lot of work to do and it looks like that they don't have a lot of money if I look at the quality reports of Sam Collins on RCE.
Back to the monocoque. The informations of the team are very disappointing, but they always said it is a new one. Also guys around in the internet which may have a link to Kodewa tell the same. As you mentioned Sam Collins proved with his pics that the front layout is absolutely the same, but that does not mean that the tub is the same as on the T128. You don't have to do a whole redesign to term this work correctly as a new one. From copyright point of views you have to change only a few things in which the monocoque differs from the original one and you can call it your own design. And this is the point that tell me it is a new one ( with only minor changes) as Kodewa is still on court with ADESS regarding copyright questions. And the latest I have heard is that the court in Munich has declared that the rebadging of the T128 ADESS into a Praga as done by Kodewa before Le Mans was illegal. So if Kodewa stayed with exactly the same ADESS designed T128 monocoque they would have a clear copyright problem also on the new car.
What is curious for me is why they have built only one new tub.
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 18:15 (Ref:3464599)   #215
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The Kodewa-Adess 'disagreement' brings back memories of the famous Shadow-Arrows dispute in F1 in the late seventies!
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 20:01 (Ref:3464628)   #216
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Back to the monocoque. The informations of the team are very disappointing, but they always said it is a new one. Also guys around in the internet which may have a link to Kodewa tell the same. As you mentioned Sam Collins proved with his pics that the front layout is absolutely the same, but that does not mean that the tub is the same as on the T128. You don't have to do a whole redesign to term this work correctly as a new one. From copyright point of views you have to change only a few things in which the monocoque differs from the original one and you can call it your own design. And this is the point that tell me it is a new one ( with only minor changes) as Kodewa is still on court with ADESS regarding copyright questions. And the latest I have heard is that the court in Munich has declared that the rebadging of the T128 ADESS into a Praga as done by Kodewa before Le Mans was illegal. So if Kodewa stayed with exactly the same ADESS designed T128 monocoque they would have a clear copyright problem also on the new car.
So my other info is from a thread on the Mulsanne's Corner Facebook page. I have asked similar questions there given that someone said that they can confirm that the tub/moncoque is not from the T128. Speculation was that maybe the P1/01 monocoque was constructed by the Holzer Group in Germany (which also worked with Kolles/HRT). But looking at older news reports about Holzer and HRT, it sounds like Holzer subcontracted the HRT composite work to Carbo Tech in Austria. Again, this regarding HRT F1, but my point is that Holzer (of which I know little about) may not be in a position to create a carbon composite monocoque on their own. So even if it was Holzer who is in charge of the manufacturing many parts for the P1/01, it may be someone else who did the actual composite work. But if the rumors are correct, it is likely a far as I care to dig especially as I was just curious.

Ultimately I understand about how you can make enough changes that you can claim the IP as your own. But it would be interesting if it was truly reverse engineered (measured the physical T128 monocoque) or if they had engineering drawings, etc. as part of the initial T128 work by Adess and then made tweaks to that and then handed it off to someone to construct. I also expect that the community that would handle this type of work is relatively small and I wonder if there can be concerns around "burnt bridges" if someone creates effectively a knock off of someone else's IP (even if it can be shown to be legal). In short, would someone like a "Holzer" be OK with potentially offending someone like "Adess" just to keep someone like "Kodewa" happy or as a customer. Or the business might be cutthroat enough, and enough subcontractors in the market that as long as the IP is legal all is OK.

Richard

Last edited by Richard C; 13 Oct 2014 at 20:24. Reason: typo
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 20:35 (Ref:3464635)   #217
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So my other info is from a thread on the Mulsanne's Corner Facebook page. I have asked similar questions there given that someone said that they can confirm that the tub/moncoque is not from the T128. Speculation was that maybe the P1/01 monocoque was constructed by the Holzer Group in Germany (which also worked with Kolles/HRT). But looking at older news reports about Holzer and HRT, it sounds like Holzer subcontracted the HRT composite work to Carbo Tech in Austria. Again, this regarding HRT F1, but my point is that Holzer (of which I know little about) may not be in a position to create a carbon composite monocoque on their own. So even if it was Holzer who is in charge of the manufacturing many parts for the P1/01, it may be someone else who did the actual composite work. But if the rumors are correct, it is likely a far as I can to dig especially as I was just curious.

Ultimately I understand about how you can make enough changes that you can claim the IP as your own. But it would be interesting if it was truly reverse engineered (measured the physical T128 monocoque) or if they had engineering drawings, etc. as part of the initial T128 work by Adess and then made tweaks to that and then handed it off to someone to construct. I also expect that the community that would handle this type of work is relatively small and I wonder if there can be concerns around "burnt bridges" if someone creates effectively a knock off of someone else's IP (even if it can be shown to be legal). In short, would someone like a "Holzer" be OK with potentially offending someone like "Adess" just to keep someone like "Kodewa" happy or as a customer. Or the business might be cutthroat enough, and enough subcontractors in the market that as long as the IP is legal all is OK.

Richard
ADESS was hired by Kodewa for constructing and designing a new LMP2 car branded Lotus. I am not sure if ADESS has had the contacts to the suppliers of the cars elements or they were handled via Kodewa.
ADESS was also part of the HRT project for improving the aero. Colllin Kolles and his Kodewa company joined forces with Holzer to get the HRT F1 cars on the grid in time. Holzer is smaller motorsport company but it have contacts to suppliers and they have had the mechanics and maybe the engineers to built up and run the cars.
Holzer seems also to be a part of the joint-venture for the Lotus P1 car, but I am quite sure that neither Kodewa nor Holzer has the hardware to do composite parts, so I think they have suppliers.
If you look at the sidepods of the Lotus P1 you see the script TCS ( = Total Composite solutions). During the car's launch it was mentioned that this company supplied the composite parts. I have never heard anything of such a company and did not find anything on it on the internet. So maybe a small new company of Kodewa and Holzer, but I am not sure on this.
ADESS did the whole wind tunnel development and CAD-design of the car and the monocoque for the T128 and handed the data over to Kodewa as part of their contract. So Kodewa could of course design a "clone" with minor changes based on this datas.
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 20:47 (Ref:3464645)   #218
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I was told the tub was made in UK
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Old 13 Oct 2014, 20:50 (Ref:3464647)   #219
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Thanks. Lots of interesting info. I don't wish any team bad luck as I want to see more involvement. So I hope they are able to get it all together and keep on racing.

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Old 14 Oct 2014, 08:06 (Ref:3464872)   #220
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Video of the fire from a fan http://youtu.be/McGSgziXGeY
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Old 14 Oct 2014, 08:28 (Ref:3464877)   #221
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Not a very quick response by the fire men. I mean, arent those some mechanics who get to the car first?
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Old 14 Oct 2014, 11:18 (Ref:3464925)   #222
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Not a very quick response by the fire men. I mean, arent those some mechanics who get to the car first?
Mechanics from the Rebellion crew. Nice job to them for helping out.
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Old 14 Oct 2014, 18:22 (Ref:3465022)   #223
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Interesting bit from DSC

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There are questions to be asked too around how practiced the Lotus drivers were in egress from the car, Bouchut later observing that he had never had to open the door from the inside before “It was always done by the mechanics before then”. There’s also the question as to how burning fuel managed to enter the cockpit “like a flame gun” in the words of Christophe when encountered at Haneda Airport by John Hindhaugh on Monday morning.
There's a good extended 19 min vid there too, among other things

En route to Shangai with repair intentions? I'll be amazed if anything materializes
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Old 14 Oct 2014, 18:36 (Ref:3465030)   #224
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'Like a flame gun'

Scary to think about in the confined spaces of an LMP cockpit Apparently Bouchut burnt his eyebrows, could've been much worse.
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Old 14 Oct 2014, 18:43 (Ref:3465031)   #225
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The R18 cockpit always seemed the smallest of the breed to me, wouldn't want to be stuck inside that one if the flames bursted to life.

At least he didn't have such problems with opening the door like Natacha here, parking next to the wall on driver's side
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qincTGEe_BM&t=6m0s
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