Robin Miller lets it all hang out...

[Ac.]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/10216/

Robin Miller usually tells it like it is, but he really lets go in this article. Even if Champ Car does come to an end, I wonder if the 500 can possibly regain its stature while under the control of TG?

[macdaddy]

Wow. Strong words.
(And no autocensor!)
Good read, though. Kinda echoes my own sentiments.

[jjspierx]

Wow, excellent read!

[Muzza]

Once again Miller proves why bother so many people. IRL is right, he says it. IRL is wrong he says it. Champ Car is right, he says it. Champ Car is wrong, he says it.

This is called journalism.

[GP Racer]

Miller blames the demise of the INDY 500 on TG. Fair enough, since it's TV ratings and attendance, along with car counts have slowly decreased over the years.

But would there even be an Indy 500, if George didn't create the IRL? The CART board seemed well on its way to minimizing the importance and clout of the race, and there was even serious talk that CART might pull out altogether. What exactly should George have done? The 500 and the racetrack are his life and business, so he did what anyone of us would have, he saved it by making sure there would always be a 500, through his IRL.

Look, I think George should speak as little as possible, as he is obviously not a very good or well thought out spokesman for his series, and some of the things he does don't seem to well planned out, such as the whole buyout deal. But, I believe he secured, what is a national treasure, in the Indy 500, and for that, he deserves some latitude and thanks.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by GP Racer
But would there even be an Indy 500, if George didn't create the IRL?

Yes.

US sports need a centrepiece. They have the Superbowl, the World Series, the Daytona 500. Indy is older than at least 2 of those (no idea when the World Series started). Sponsors would have demanded entry to the 500 (as they are now).

[Muzza]

Originally posted by GP Racer
(...)
But would there even be an Indy 500, if George didn't create the IRL? The CART board seemed well on its way to minimizing the importance and clout of the race, and there was even serious talk that CART might pull out altogether. (...)

Excuse me, GP Racer,

But I have to take exception to that. I had never seen any indication that:

- the CART board was well on its way to minimize the importance and clout of the race; (quite the opposite! Can you please provide any information to substantiate your claim? The CART board even negotatiated tv deals with many countries that were based on the presence of the Indy 500 in its calendar - Brazil, for one, is an example that I know inside out)

- there was serious talk that CART might pull out altogether [of the Indy 500]. (in all fairness, it was Tony George that, mirroing what had happened in 1979 in the USAC vs. CART split, hinted that CART teams - namely Roger Penske were "uniting to sabotage the 500". I have newspaper crops from diverse sources to demonstrate that).

I recall pretty well the events of 1995 and 1996, as already at the time I was alerting people how damaging they could be to open wheel racing in North America.

Regards,


Muzza

[rush1]

The Indianapolis 500 has survived two world wars, a fire that consumed the original pagoda (I think in the 1920's?) and a nasty gas shortage in the 1970's. It will survive its current problems and come back strong. At least thats my opinion.

[Muzza]

Originally posted by rush1
The Indianapolis 500 has survived two world wars, a fire that consumed the original pagoda (I think in the 1920's?) and a nasty gas shortage in the 1970's. It will survive its current problems and come back strong. At least thats my opinion.

Yes, rush1, the original pagoda burned down in 1925 - just one day after the race.

I would like to leave a warning here: even though I also hope the Indy 500 will continue to go strong, this should not be taken for granted. Races and series happen to fulfil a purpose - either technical, commercial or sportive. They don't "just happen".

Look where Camp Car is today, after several administrations at CART took things for granted. There is no replacement for hard work - in conceiving, organizing and promoting a race or series. Writers benefit from wishiful thinking; racing organizers do not.

Cheers,


Muzza

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Muzza
Excuse me, GP Racer,

But I have to take exception to that. I had never seen any indication that:

- the CART board was well on its way to minimize the importance and clout of the race; (quite the opposite! Can you please provide any information to substantiate your claim? The CART board even negotatiated tv deals with many countries that were based on the presence of the Indy 500 in its calendar - Brazil, for one, is an example that I know inside out)

- there was serious talk that CART might pull out altogether [of the Indy 500]. (in all fairness, it was Tony George that, mirroing what had happened in 1979 in the USAC vs. CART split, hinted that CART teams - namely Roger Penske were "uniting to sabotage the 500". I have newspaper crops from diverse sources to demonstrate that).

I recall pretty well the events of 1995 and 1996, as already at the time I was alerting people how damaging they could be to open wheel racing in North America.

Regards,


Muzza

Muzza, I have to go by all memory of those days, as any magazines I had of them are long gone.

I distinctly remember Craig saying that "Indy is not sacrosanct", meaning it wasn't untouchable. In an article in 95, Road and Track if I remember, it was suggested that Craig was thinking of pulling out altogether, due to problems between him and George. I also remember, TG felt his race and his spot on the board, weren't getting what he felt, was a fair shake, and that team owners had to much say in matters. In other words, there was plenty of friction here, on both sides.

I believe George was never totally comfortable with the way CART was run. He didn't like having a group of team owners in charge, giving away, what he felt was to much power. In the USAC days of his grandfather, track owners ruled the roost, and I believe that he wanted to get that back. He didn't want his race held hostage by CART's board, or not have it in his control. He wanted to secure its future, hence the IRL.

The one unexpected thing that put a crimp in his plan, was how long CART lasted on its own and without his race. I don't think he expected that.

Thats the way I remember it.

[rush1]

Originally posted by Muzza
Yes, rush1, the original pagoda burned down in 1925 - just one day after the race.

I would like to leave a warning here: even though I also hope the Indy 500 will continue to go strong, this should not be taken for granted. Races and series happen to fulfil a purpose - either technical, commercial or sportive. They don't "just happen".

Look where Camp Car is today, after several administrations at CART took things for granted. There is no replacement for hard work - in conceiving, organizing and promoting a race or series. Writers benefit from wishiful thinking; racing organizers do not.

Cheers,



Muzza

CART "happened" because of the Indianapolis 500

CART reached its lofty heights because it could market drivers who won the Indianapolis 500. Fans came out to see Foyt, Mears, the Unsers and Johnny Rutherford because they won the Indianapolis 500. Do you think these people are ever introduced as winning the GI Joe 200 or Long Beach Grand Prix? They are not. When CART champion Juan Pablo Montoya raced in Chicago in 2000 it was billed in the newspapers and radio as "come see Indianapolis 500 champion Juan Montoya compete this weekend... Cart champion was never mentioned. CART NEVER BECAME AN IMPORTANT PART OF THE AMERICAN SPORTING SCENE. Walk up to someone on the street and tell them CART is on life support and they won't know what you are talking about.

Without Indianapolis CART would never of reached its prominence (if existed at all) and after 8 years without Indianapolis it has turned into a club league filled with pay drivers.

[GP Racer]

Good points on the importance of this race in American sports history, and to CART's history as well, Rush.

[climb]

Agree with GP Racer: "there's nothig sacred about Indy500" was the loudest Cart's slogan at the time the seires split.

Actually, in the Cart tycoons intentions, Indy500 should have become nothing more than a race in the schedule like others.
TG had all the right to oppose that theorem.
The progressive switch of Cart major teams to IRL proved that theorem was just bull****; open-wheel in the States lives around Indy500.

Mr Miller, seems once again ignore reality.The lack of cars at Indy is not a problem of mismanagement (although Tg's action has been all but perfect), but basically depends of the economic situation, that even affects ultra-popular Nascar.
If Nascar have such problems, well it doesn't take a genius to understand that times are really tough for everybody.

[racer69]

As with GP Racer and climb, that is the way i recall it.

Robin Miller throws out this same article, with some appropriate updates, at least 2 or 3 times a year. It is the same read every time

[GP Racer]

Thanks climb and racer69, I thought my memory might have failed me, until you guys posted!

[Testure]

Originally posted by climb
Agree with GP Racer: "there's nothig sacred about Indy500" was the loudest Cart's slogan at the time the seires split.

Actually, in the Cart tycoons intentions, Indy500 should have become nothing more than a race in the schedule like others.
TG had all the right to oppose that theorem.
The progressive switch of Cart major teams to IRL proved that theorem was just bull****; open-wheel in the States lives around Indy500.

I don't think that you're reading the article the same way I am... Miller isn't arguing whether CART did or did not make those mistakes you list CART as having made. He's saying that Tony George is (bizarrely) making those same mistakes himself. A question for you: Is there nothing sacred about 33 cars ("just a number", according to TG)? Bump day (gone in 2003)? Don't make the mistake of thinking CART fans don't love the Indy 500 just as much as anyone else.

Originally posted by climb
Mr Miller, seems once again ignore reality.The lack of cars at Indy is not a problem of mismanagement (although Tg's action has been all but perfect), but basically depends of the economic situation, that even affects ultra-popular Nascar.
If Nascar have such problems, well it doesn't take a genius to understand that times are really tough for everybody.

Well, let's have a think... Yes I think that the car count issue is mainly an economic issue, but not in the sense that there's just no money available "full stop". Isn't it fair to say that there just isn't the level of public interest that there used to be to justify sponsorship packages? If I was in charge of a company's sponsorship programme, I might think that I wouldn't get good exposure for my money in the Indy 500 or it's associated league (though it might be better than CART these days). Let's not kid ourselves - the viewing figures for open-wheel racing within the US are atrocious.

Equally, even if there were 33 cars, would that halt the decline in viewers and public interest? I read about decreased crowds and interest in 1996/97/98/99 and I'm still reading about it today. As Robin Miller notes, the IRL has had eight years to build a following, but hasn't had much success.

I'm disappointed that so many people are still looking for easy solutions for the problems of open-wheel racing in the US: If there were more American drivers. If it was based around the Indy 500. If there were few/no road courses. If there were only US races. If we had Penske. If we had Ganassi. If we had the big CART drivers. If we had CART's engine manufacturers. None of those have really worked and we're left with: If only CART was gone.

My opinion: the league should've stuck with the original plan (at least, as most people understood it). All oval. Mostly American drivers. Cheap to race. A strong relationship with the grass-roots of US motorsport. It might take 20 years to change things, but that's the kind of long-term view that NASCAR took and it's paying off for them.

Apart from the all-oval nature, right now, in term of drivers, teams, engines and budgets, the IRL is CART.


OK, I'm rambling and babbling I'm just incredibly disappointed (as we all are) at what's happened to US open-wheel racing.

PS - happy Patrick's day to you from Ireland I don't drink, so can you please make sure you consume my share?

[Flatspot]

Indy used to be about innovation, finding the right combination and putting everything on the line to make the show. It could be the defining moment in a driver's career.

...it's a spec race that only requires four laps at any speed ...

Regardless of who is at fault, no truer words have been spoken and that's a shame.

[Hazza]

Gentlemen, start your engines. So what? It's only four words

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Testure
I don't think that you're reading the article the same way I am... Miller isn't arguing whether CART did or did not make those mistakes you list CART as having made. He's saying that Tony George is (bizarrely) making those same mistakes himself. A question for you: Is there nothing sacred about 33 cars ("just a number", according to TG)? Bump day (gone in 2003)? Don't make the mistake of thinking CART fans don't love the Indy 500 just as much as anyone else.
Well, let's have a think... Yes I think that the car count issue is mainly an economic issue, but not in the sense that there's just no money available "full stop". Isn't it fair to say that there just isn't the level of public interest that there used to be to justify sponsorship packages? If I was in charge of a company's sponsorship programme, I might think that I wouldn't get good exposure for my money in the Indy 500 or it's associated league (though it might be better than CART these days). Let's not kid ourselves - the viewing figures for open-wheel racing within the US are atrocious.

Equally, even if there were 33 cars, would that halt the decline in viewers and public interest? I read about decreased crowds and interest in 1996/97/98/99 and I'm still reading about it today. As Robin Miller notes, the IRL has had eight years to build a following, but hasn't had much success.

I'm disappointed that so many people are still looking for easy solutions for the problems of open-wheel racing in the US: If there were more American drivers. If it was based around the Indy 500. If there were few/no road courses. If there were only US races. If we had Penske. If we had Ganassi. If we had the big CART drivers. If we had CART's engine manufacturers. None of those have really worked and we're left with: If only CART was gone.

My opinion: the league should've stuck with the original plan (at least, as most people understood it). All oval. Mostly American drivers. Cheap to race. A strong relationship with the grass-roots of US motorsport. It might take 20 years to change things, but that's the kind of long-term view that NASCAR took and it's paying off for them.

Apart from the all-oval nature, right now, in term of drivers, teams, engines and budgets, the IRL is CART.


OK, I'm rambling and babbling I'm just incredibly disappointed (as we all are) at what's happened to US open-wheel racing.

PS - happy Patrick's day to you from Ireland I don't drink, so can you please make sure you consume my share?

I hate when you ramble, now I have so much to write!

I did read the same article and I do find some fault with the IRL and TG, like I stated in my first post. Thats fine, but there is a bigger point when always blaming TG for everything. I personally believe, along with some others here, that there may not be a 500 without TG and the IRL. So for all TG's faults, at least he's owed some gratitude for possibly saving the race.

33 cars are important, and it would be great to see that tradition go on, but in light of the changing nature of racing, it could be impossible, so temporary(hopefully) changes can be made while still keeping the race important and competitive. Although lately, it looks like they should make the number rather easily.

I think every sponsor that is in the IRL, is there for the 500. Its not for Homestead or Nazareth. The ratings and attendance for Indy are down, but they are still very good, and really, only NASCAR has a couple of races that can pull in those kind of numbers.

As far as simple solutions, we all know that there isn't just one solution, its going to take a combination of some of the solutions you mentioned. I've found that its the CART fans more than IRL fans that, that are always dreaming, especially during this OWRS fiasco, and I've been on both sides. Most IRL fans seem pretty well grounded and happy with the series as it is. The problem die-hard CART fans are going to have, if this goes one series, is that they seem to think they are going to tell George how THEY want the series to be run, and that isn't going to happen. George is the one and only, and for better or worse, in charge.

It would have been good to see TG stick to his original vision, I thought it was a good one, but reality has a way of changing visions.

Now I'm rambling! I need a beer, it is St. Patricks Day! Have a happy one, from New York, home of the biggest St. Paddy's day parade in the world!

[macdaddy]

[Hazza]

Make it a big guinness!

[GP Racer]

I wasn't going to rehash this thread, but I found some info, besides my memory, to bolster my argument here, as well as climb and racer69, who agreed with my opinion.

In a letter to the Indy Star in 1995, from Tony George, he states, "there is much that I want to do in my life, but I'll be unable to enjoy any of it, if the "500" is not secure. I felt, the long-term protection of the "500", based around a solid series, of top-level, open wheel oval track races, was the best way to accomplish that".

Sounds about the way I remember it...