[Multi 21] Red Bull-Honda

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by E.B

At least Toro Rosso / Honda have admitted their second half of the season has been all about developing the Honda engine more fully for next year's expansion to four cars, and this has entailed sacrificing this year's points and results.

That's just a lame excuse that nobody should fall for. How many times did we hear something similar in the McLaren years? I'm stunned people just buy this.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Fixed that for you

Quite right! Alonso is a superstar and Ferrari and Mercedes were mad not to sign Alonso to one of their out of contract 2019 seats.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Quite right! Alonso is a superstar and Ferrari and Mercedes were mad not to sign Alonso to one of their out of contract 2019 seats.

Probably because he’s such a jinx these days

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by E.B

At least Toro Rosso / Honda have admitted their second half of the season has been all about developing the Honda engine more fully for next year's expansion to four cars, and this has entailed sacrificing this year's points and results.

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

That's just a lame excuse that nobody should fall for. How many times did we hear something similar in the McLaren years? I'm stunned people just buy this.

I don't think what I say below is contrary to what I said just a handful of posts above. I believe points matter for STR, but at the same time I have read that Honda has been given permission to release upgrades as they see fit. So I think both scenarios are true. STR wants to score points, but the development program for the Honda PU is also important. Those two priorities compete with each other. STR also appears to have issues with it's chassis and inconsistent (or poor) performance from their drivers (mostly Hartley)

Richard

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

That's just a lame excuse that nobody should fall for. How many times did we hear something similar in the McLaren years? I'm stunned people just buy this.

The difference is STR hasn't been rolling out updates and claiming to be the best chassis. McLaren spent all year telling everyone who would listen how great their chassis is and it's all Honda's fault. Turns out maybe not so much.

And sorry, but STR has been able to put in good laps with the engine at most tracks. Even at their best McLaren rarely appeared in the top 10 in qualifying with Alonso driving so I think your comparison is way off.

[chillibowl]

i remain optimistic about the RB-Honda partnership mainly because i think it is a risk worth taking.

Renault apparently are looking at a redesign for next year's engine and unless they nail it right out of the box (unlikely given their recent history and spending desires) its not like they were going to deliver a world championship winning engine anyways (my opinion). if anything they are redesigning to make an engine that suits their works team and not one for their customers.

imo all RB have sacrificed is a couple of race wins (wins that most likely would only come from unusual races or on a limited amount of tracks where the engine plays less of a role) for a bespoke engine from a major manufacturer.

time will tell of course, but despite Honda's past issues, moving forward this, imo, still gives them a better chance at a title then staying with Renault.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i remain optimistic about the RB-Honda partnership mainly because i think it is a risk worth taking.

Renault apparently are looking at a redesign for next year's engine and unless they nail it right out of the box (unlikely given their recent history and spending desires) its not like they were going to deliver a world championship winning engine anyways (my opinion). if anything they are redesigning to make an engine that suits their works team and not one for their customers.

imo all RB have sacrificed is a couple of race wins (wins that most likely would only come from unusual races or on a limited amount of tracks where the engine plays less of a role) for a bespoke engine from a major manufacturer.

time will tell of course, but despite Honda's past issues, moving forward this, imo, still gives them a better chance at a title then staying with Renault.

I agree with you Chilli, McLaren were stupid, Ron Dennis had stated the problem that a manufacturer would not let a customer team win the championship, now RBR is no longer the "works" team they need a manufacturer, and the only independent manufacturer now is Honda.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by wnut

I agree with you Chilli, McLaren were stupid, Ron Dennis had stated the problem that a manufacturer would not let a customer team win the championship, now RBR is no longer the "works" team they need a manufacturer, and the only independent manufacturer now is Honda.

Agree 100%
The other side of the story is that RBR have a similar attitude to their "selected drivers". They have (publicly anyway) made it pretty clear that their selected No1 is Max and that means it would be pretty unlikely that Danny would have been a championship contender at RBR.
I think EB (and others) has it pretty right with the opinion that STR are runnning what is predominantly a test and development program for next year's Honda RBR campaign. As I recall STR have not had a PU related mechanical failiure in the second half of the season during a race. The penaly's they have taken have been for testing failures or for the substitution of parts either to advance performance or correct driveabilty problems apparent with new assemblies.
The end result of the programe should be a more competitive RBR next season which is great for F1.
I just hope that Renault can get their act together as well.

[Oldtony]

Helmut Marko says that is the plan in this statement to Autosport.





"Toro Rosso are sacrificing their season for next year. It's part of our concept that we have with Honda."
"The figures are already ahead of Renault."

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Helmut Marko says that is the plan in this statement to Autosport.





"Toro Rosso are sacrificing their season for next year. It's part of our concept that we have with Honda."
"The figures are already ahead of Renault."

Are there any actual commercial partners on the STR car this season who might not exactly enjoy torching their season for the mother ship's future?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Helmut Marko says that is the plan in this statement to Autosport.





"Toro Rosso are sacrificing their season for next year. It's part of our concept that we have with Honda."
"The figures are already ahead of Renault."

I suppose this could continue in 2019. Honda could throw the new developments to TR for testing, and once the reliability problems are ironed out (with subsequent DNF's and grid penalties) put the refined article into the back of the RB cars.
Toro Rosso could be the sacrificial lambs (well, bulls!)

[VIVA GT]

I see that Dr Marko is saying that Honda could make Verstappen the youngest World Champion (Autosport article here)
So, laying the ground work nice and early so that if it doesn't happen, Red Bull can do their usual and blame the lack of success on their engine supplier!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I see that Dr Marko is saying that Honda could make Verstappen the youngest World Champion (Autosport article here)
So, laying the ground work nice and early so that if it doesn't happen, Red Bull can do their usual and blame the lack of success on their engine supplier!

Hope he has an engine supplier option before he starts blaming Honda!
The cupboard looks pretty bare!

[wnut]

This reeks of rank hypocrisy from Horner:

"Has regret also contributed to Ricciardo’s current slump? That question was put to Horner.

“Only Daniel can answer that,” he said. “There’s no point broaching it with him. The decision was made and he’s comfortable with it. He’s driving a competitive car that’s taken pole position so you can see the differential between where this part [the front] of the grid is and where this part [Renault] is two laps behind.”

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...son-discontent

Deserves a swift kick in the ...

[S griffin]

Bet Ricciardo can’t wait to get out of there. His car may not be as good, but the reliability should be miles better

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by wnut

This reeks of rank hypocrisy from Horner:

"Has regret also contributed to Ricciardo’s current slump? That question was put to Horner.

“Only Daniel can answer that,” he said. “There’s no point broaching it with him. The decision was made and he’s comfortable with it. He’s driving a competitive car that’s taken pole position so you can see the differential between where this part [the front] of the grid is and where this part [Renault] is two laps behind.”

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...son-discontent

Deserves a swift kick in the ...

What hypocrisy? He's actually telling it how it is. Right now, anyway. Next year may be quite different.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Bet Ricciardo can’t wait to get out of there. His car may not be as good, but the reliability should be miles better

Despite suggesting Gasly compete in the last two DR has himself committed to the last two races, which is the right the thing to do. He's not a quitter and if he had decided not to see the season out with RBR, I think that decision will have followed him around. So good on him.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

I think it's pretty silly to think he would ever not do those last two races. Praising him for not doing something monumentally stupid like not driving races he's been contracted for seems a bit unnecessary.

[S griffin]

I think the temptation was there, but he’s obviously hoping things will go right for him in the last two GPs

[wnut]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

What hypocrisy? He's actually telling it how it is. Right now, anyway. Next year may be quite different.

Suggesting Ricciardo is any part of his current form problem is clearly wrong, it is an RBR reliability problem pure and simple.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I think it's pretty silly to think he would ever not do those last two races. Praising him for not doing something monumentally stupid like not driving races he's been contracted for seems a bit unnecessary.

He was the one who suggested Gasly compete in the final two races. The fact he suggested it, strongly suggests it's not a very pleasant atmosphere at RBR and therefore he was clearly tempted to pack it in but decided not to. I don't see "praise" as being unnecessary.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

He was the one who suggested Gasly compete in the final two races. The fact he suggested it, strongly suggests it's not a very pleasant atmosphere at RBR and therefore he was clearly tempted to pack it in but decided not to. I don't see "praise" as being unnecessary.

I never took that as serious in any way, just a phrase uttered due to (very understandable) frustration.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by wnut

Suggesting Ricciardo is any part of his current form problem is clearly wrong, it is an RBR reliability problem pure and simple.

The question suggested that, Horner's answer doesn't in my view.

[GTRMagic]

There is a LOT of talk in all the media about how happy RBR, Red Bull, Mr Newey, Mobil and anyone else in the RBR program are with working with Honda for next season.

It seems like a HUGE amount of hype for an engine maker who so far havent produced anything like a regular top 10 finishing engine...

Leap of faith?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

There is a LOT of talk in all the media about how happy RBR, Red Bull, Mr Newey, Mobil and anyone else in the RBR program are with working with Honda for next season.

It seems like a HUGE amount of hype for an engine maker who so far havent produced anything like a regular top 10 finishing engine...

Leap of faith?

Possibly.

That said, the Best Engine Ever has been mated to the Best Chassis Ever for the last few years and neither have excelled, so it isn't entirely clear which one of the two (if not both) is an incorrect description!