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Old 19 Feb 2020, 04:50 (Ref:3958390)   #51
V8 Fireworks
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Originally Posted by djr81 View Post
You know how it works. They trade massive heads and costs for displacement, make good power and torque then get slated for being low tech. On a good day I would call it a good engineering solution.
I didn't say it's old-fashioned, it does the job given in the US cars are not taxed based on displacement. Rather, to claim DOHC engines with variable lift and variable cam phasing produce "limp wristed engines" is illogical because General Motors themselves use DOHC in all their other engines!

General Motors' own 4 cylinder turbo engine has DOHC:


General Motors' own 4.2L 8 cylinder hot vee twin-turbo has DOHC:


Clearly DOHC and variable valve timing paired with smaller displacement and (potentially) turbochargers is a good engineering solution for the vast majority of purposes.
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Old 19 Feb 2020, 05:03 (Ref:3958391)   #52
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Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
Refuses to acknowledge pushrods and more torque and lower COG.
I don't refuse at all. A large displacement and/or long stroke engine will have more torque than a small displacement and/or short stroke engine (i.e., an engine designed for high revs like a VTEC or old Ferrari NA engine). AFAIK the difference is not because of the pushrod 2-valve layout in and of itself (though having smaller total valve area that flows less will of course shift peak torque to lower rpm), but because of the displacement and stroke.

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Pushrod has packaging benefits and will produce more low down torque than DOHC but can't rev as hard.

So not "old" or "inferior"

Peak power out of a DOHC looks good on paper but will get out accelerated handily by a car with more torque and drivability.
For all the torque the 6.2L supercharged Camaro ZL1 has [881 Nm], it is virtually undrivable under 60 mph: https://youtu.be/sUKWAIdQMng?t=483

I would not be at all surprised if a "limp wristed" 3.2L NSX Type R VTEC [300 Nm] or 4.0L 911 GT3 [460 Nm] would actually pull away from the "can out accelerate DOHC handily" Camaro ZL1 on a mountain road because the Honda and Porsche can actually put the power down out of each hairpin instead of just trying to swap ends...

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Old 19 Feb 2020, 06:58 (Ref:3958397)   #53
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Torque is just an intermediary force applied on the crankshaft. Ultimately, it's fuel (energy) that goes into the engine, and power (energy rate) that is extracted out. Torque largely means nothing, it's possible to have large torque and zero power as the case in structural bolts in a truss.
Torque is what makes a car accelerate or pull a load.

You make statements like this it is clear the wind sails directly between your ears, unimpeded.
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Old 19 Feb 2020, 12:24 (Ref:3958476)   #54
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Torque is what makes a car accelerate or pull a load.
Power is what makes a car accelerate or pull a load.



Power = Force * velocity
Force = mass * acceleration (Newton's second law)

Therefore

acceleration = Force / mass = Power / ( velocity * mass )

So... the faster you are already going, or the heavier you are, the harder it is to accelerate for a given amount of power. Makes sense right?

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You make statements like this it is clear the wind sails directly between your ears, unimpeded.
Unfortunately you are wrong, but that's ok!

Torque is an intermediary force that can easily be manipulated by gearing. Power however is the direct rate at which chemical energy is extracted from fuel or battery and turned into useful work.

A typical car multiplies the torque produced by the engine by 15x in first gear (5.0 first gear ratio, 3.0 diff ratio).

Can it multiply the power by 15x? No, not under any circumstance that would void the conversation of energy. Therefore power is far more fundamental than torque, after all it is all about manipulating energy. That a twisting force is exerted on the crankshaft due to the way a piston engine is designed is largely incidental.

A vehicle's torque can be easily changed by gearing, power however is the fundamental rate at which the vehicle can do useful work.

With large torque but zero power, a vehicle will go nowhere and do nothing.

acceleration = Force / mass = Power / ( velocity * mass )

If torque is very large, say an elephant hanging off a breaker bar attached to the crank pulley, but power is zero... Then nothing will happen (aside from snapping off your crank pulley bolt!).

A lot of people don't understand the relationship of power and torque, I am happy to explain.
It took me a while to understand myself.

Fun fact:

1 Nm = 1 joule

The units are equivalent, you can Google it.

And what's power? Joules per second (the definition of a Watt)

So what does that make torque? It's just the energy extracted from the fuel per one rotation of the engine.

So a 200 Nm engine running at 8000rpm is equivalent to a 400 Nm engine running at 4000 rpm. The former is like a small hammer tapping really fast, the latter is like a big hammer tapping slowly, ultimately they both do the same job because they are producing the same amount of power.

It's certainly not torque that "makes" things move. For example, wheel nuts on average car are torqued to 110 Nm and you are certainly not intending for them to budge one iota!

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 19 Feb 2020 at 12:54.
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Old 19 Feb 2020, 13:16 (Ref:3958488)   #55
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
A lot of people don't understand the relationship of power and torque
I seem to remember a definition along the lines of torque is whether you can pull the skin off a rice pudding. Power is how fast you pull it.
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Old 19 Feb 2020, 13:51 (Ref:3958495)   #56
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In the woods of Enzo Ferrari " Power sells cars, Torque wins races".
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Old 19 Feb 2020, 14:19 (Ref:3958500)   #57
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In the woods of Enzo Ferrari " Power sells cars, Torque wins races".
I think that means tractability between engines in the same class.

As Todd Kelly said in the Kelly Racing Mustang video series, instead of going for a headline 670hp at 7400 rpm, the idea is to go for a lower peak of 645hp at 7400rpm but with stronger power (broader torque curve) between say 4800-7300rpm.

I think people often misinterpret that to make sweeping statements about engines in different classes , when I think it's actually about small percentages here and there.

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Old 23 Feb 2020, 01:23 (Ref:3959296)   #58
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Back to the Holden brand “retirement”, all the people complaining with a ‘how dare they’ stance, can we please have the media gumbies ask what road car do they drive?

When they say Hyundai/Kia/Nissan/Toyota etc (Like NOT Holden) please remind them of their contribution to the Holden brand’s demise!

Too late to complain now...
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 01:26 (Ref:3959298)   #59
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Is this *really* the future of GM products racing here?

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Old 23 Feb 2020, 01:51 (Ref:3959305)   #60
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Is this *really* the future of GM products racing here?

How would racing a Camaro here be any different to when GTRs and Sierra’s were raced and all the criticism it copped about them not being generally available to the public?

Or will standard Supercars double standards apply to things?
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 02:01 (Ref:3959307)   #61
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
Is this *really* the future of GM products racing here?

A "twice the price++" TA2 car?

There are enough good formulas out there now that could be picked up and run as is, or tweaked slightly and taken to the next level. There is no need to build a whole new control chassis to accommodate 2 door car bodyshells. If they want manufacturer "support" ( that should be "input" if you want to be truthful ) there is GT3 and TCR to choose from, if they want Camaros and Mustangs, there is TA2. Plenty of options, just need to get all the self-interest, mates deals, and not being able to admit they got it wrong / went the wrong direction / put all their eggs in one basket / etc out of the way for a sensible, logical, and probably most importantly, financially viable decision to be made.
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 02:03 (Ref:3959308)   #62
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https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/02/23...odore-in-2021/

Walkinshaw: ‘We’re not going to be in a Holden Commodore’ in 2021
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 02:22 (Ref:3959312)   #63
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https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/02/23...odore-in-2021/

Walkinshaw: ‘We’re not going to be in a Holden Commodore’ in 2021
GM Commodores?
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 02:26 (Ref:3959313)   #64
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HSV Clubsport / GTS / R8 ?
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 02:35 (Ref:3959314)   #65
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GM Commodores?
https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/02/23...r-wau-in-2021/
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Asked by Speedcafe.com to clarify whether his statements meant his team would switch brands or simply race a Commodore without Holden badges, Walkinshaw admitted he’s eyeing an entirely new car.
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 03:14 (Ref:3959321)   #66
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
Is this *really* the future of GM products racing here?

Looks much than a commodore but I thought the camaro couldn't fit the supercars platform?
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 03:34 (Ref:3959323)   #67
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Looks much than a commodore but I thought the camaro couldn't fit the supercars platform?
That's an artist's concept.

Height
COTF: ~1490
Camaro: 1350
Mustang: 1381

Overall length
COTF: 4890
Camaro: 4780
Mustang: 4784

Width
COTF: ~1868
Camaro: 1900
Mustang: 1916

Wheelbase
COTF: 2820
Camaro: 2811
Mustang: 2720

A lower and wider control chassis will certainly help the appearance of both Mustang and Camaro.

The Mustang will still need 90mm added to the length in-between the wheels, but that shouldn't be a big problem.
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 04:37 (Ref:3959327)   #68
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
That's an artist's concept.

Height
COTF: ~1490
Camaro: 1350
Mustang: 1381

Overall length
COTF: 4890
Camaro: 4780
Mustang: 4784

Width
COTF: ~1868
Camaro: 1900
Mustang: 1916

Wheelbase
COTF: 2820
Camaro: 2811
Mustang: 2720

A lower and wider control chassis will certainly help the appearance of both Mustang and Camaro.

The Mustang will still need 90mm added to the length in-between the wheels, but that shouldn't be a big problem.
But didn't WAU previously say it wasn't feasible to adapt the camaro?
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 04:49 (Ref:3959329)   #69
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I think they didn't want to absolutely butcher it to fit like Penske did with the Mustang.
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 05:35 (Ref:3959331)   #70
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With ADP Having a run this weekend with 888 Make him hot property and a possible replacement for Jdub at some stage with him also considering a step back?

Maybe too early to call but with a possible DRJP Seat and "maybe, I said maybe" 888 seat available, could be a nice choice to have.
Jdub & Vgis staying for one more crack,
ADP to DJRTP?


When is Fabians contract due ?

Could be two new faces at Dicks shed

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Old 23 Feb 2020, 08:10 (Ref:3959343)   #71
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Originally Posted by one five five View Post
How would racing a Camaro here be any different to when GTRs and Sierra’s were raced and all the criticism it copped about them not being generally available to the public?



Or will standard Supercars double standards apply to things?
The difference is the cost to develop it is hugely more. In GrpA you could buy from Rouse or Eggenberger and the homologation was paid for. Homologation of a Camaro now is much more costly than anything back then.
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 09:29 (Ref:3959355)   #72
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What's this thread about, I'm lost now?
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 09:43 (Ref:3959357)   #73
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The difference is the cost to develop it is hugely more. In GrpA you could buy from Rouse or Eggenberger and the homologation was paid for. Homologation of a Camaro now is much more costly than anything back then.
And who's responsible for those huge costs? The organisers. It's like they don't want any new cars to join. Make it cheaper and easier and they will flock to it. The return they get on the outlay is just so out of kilter it's not funny, hence no one is coming into the series.
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 09:45 (Ref:3959358)   #74
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What's this thread about, I'm lost now?
Which drivers, teams and vehicles will be racing in the series in 2021.
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 09:46 (Ref:3959359)   #75
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And who's responsible for those huge costs? The organisers. It's like they don't want any new cars to join. Make it cheaper and easier and they will flock to it. The return they get on the outlay is just so out of kilter it's not funny, hence no one is coming into the series.
Who owns the organisers...
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