[Official] Team of the Grand Prix: Russian Grand Prix 2018

[GT6]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Again, why were fans 'cheated'. Perhaps those who watch F1 on a superficial level, maybe, but not 'fans'. They would have known what was likely to happen and shouldn't have been surprised about it. I'm not debating that it was good for the race or for F1 in general, it clearly wasn't. But its allowed and was (by me at least) 100% expected.

Well Andrew, true fans want to see motor racing, which is were cars and driver compete to see who is best. By changing that Mercedes and TW not only ruin the race for true fans and the public in general but brought shame onto both F1 and Mercedes, Yes you could see TW felt bad about it but by doing it with in reality little to be gained his once proud reputation amongst the people who follow the sport has been diminished. This is of course my opinion but i think it is shared by quite a few others.

[Aysedasi]

But Mercedes have changed nothing Simon. You say it as if it's the first time it's ever happened..... And as for shame, I just don't see how 'shame' features at all.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by GT6

Well Andrew, true fans want to see motor racing, which is were cars and driver compete to see who is best. By changing that Mercedes and TW not only ruin the race for true fans and the public in general but brought shame onto both F1 and Mercedes, Yes you could see TW felt bad about it but by doing it with in reality little to be gained his once proud reputation amongst the people who follow the sport has been diminished. This is of course my opinion but i think it is shared by quite a few others.

I do agree with this, and although I don't like team orders I agree it's legal etc. But I will add one thing to it - the fuss of this will blow over by the end of the next race and everyone will forget and not care. There have been so so so many team order events over the decades and the ones we remember were the most dramatic - Austria 2002 for example.

I agree it sucks. I agree nobody really likes it and it does feel a little like "cheating" the fans, but it's short-term fuss that blows over. TW and Mercedes know that. By the time they have "2018 Formula One World Champion" stickers on the back of every new Mercedes on every showroom in the world, the fuss over swapping drivers will be long gone.

[GT6]

If you go to a race and instead of watching cars race you see a shameful incident where someone not actually racing decides who wins then you have the right to call it what it is "SHAMEFUL". If it is legal or not it does not change that fact. I suspect that Mercedes are not happy with the coverage they got over this race, which if they had not "legally Cheated" would have been seen as a great result. If like me you go to motor racing to actually see cars race then i can simply not understand how you can accept the actions of this type, if you stand up and cry "foul" then perhaps something can be done to punish those that do it.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by GT6

Well Andrew, true fans want to see motor racing, which is were cars and driver compete to see who is best. By changing that Mercedes and TW not only ruin the race for true fans and the public in general but brought shame onto both F1 and Mercedes,

I don't understand the comments that state what happened was not racing.

It has to be remembered that each event is not a one-off, but part of a season long campaign which allocates prize money based on a team's results.

The overall aim of F1 is for teams to compete in a championship to see who is best. That is exactly what we saw part of at the weekend, and rather than try and segregate 'true fans' from 'false fans', I would suggest that those who want to be a fan of F1 should watch in that understanding.

The championship is contested by teams who enter two cars at each event, with multiple events contributing to the overall result. Given that penalties are carried over between events, and PU allocation is also calculated on a multiple event basis, it would be wrong to try and view each event in isolation. Teams attempt to extract the best season-long result for themselves, including swapping driver positions, putting other drivers in for FP sessions and managing their pit-stop strategies.

The fact that each event awards trophies separately, and that the drivers are also contesting for a WDC should not distract from what F1 is. They should just be seen as part of the show, not the reason for racing.

Is what happened with Mercedes' choice to manage their respective 1-2 positions any worse than RBR having to start from so far back? We saw (albeit for a short time) the top two drivers challenge each other for position on the track - RBR's penalties contributed more to not seeing the drivers and cars compete to see who is best in this GP than anything Mercedes did.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by GT6

If you go to a race and instead of watching cars race you see a shameful incident where someone not actually racing decides who wins then you have the right to call it what it is "SHAMEFUL".

On July 21st, Lewis Hamilton posted this 'We win as we lose together as a team.'

If he can accept that Toto Wolff is part of the racing team, why should we exclude him from those who are actually racing?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by GT6

If you go to a race and instead of watching cars race you see a shameful incident where someone not actually racing decides who wins then you have the right to call it what it is "SHAMEFUL". If it is legal or not it does not change that fact. I suspect that Mercedes are not happy with the coverage they got over this race, which if they had not "legally Cheated" would have been seen as a great result. If like me you go to motor racing to actually see cars race then i can simply not understand how you can accept the actions of this type, if you stand up and cry "foul" then perhaps something can be done to punish those that do it.

I totally get that. You're not wrong. But Mercedes don't care. This will blow over like every other incident, and by the end of the year we'll have forgotten. Maybe a few of us hardcore fans here will remember, but Mercedes are selling cars - the customers know they won the title. There isn't an asterisk beside it.

Small bit of pain to aim for a bigger goal as far as TW is concerned.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I know this has nothing to do with Ferrari, but as it’s a DISCUSSION forum, are we not allowed to have an opionion on team orders, compare it to orders in the past and be able to praise a team manager for making the correct call for the team, and being completely open about it, rather than trying to hide the call and treat the fans as mugs, as has happened before?

As for the blister, you can see a small blister appearing on the left rear of Lewis’s car as highlighted by the commentators and DC at the time.

Of course one can have an opinion on team orders.

As for the blister, DC said at the time he couldn't see any visible signs of a blister.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Of course one can have an opinion on team orders.

As for the blister, DC said at the time he couldn't see any visible signs of a blister.

I remember seeing a piece where they said that they could see a blister, albeit small. think it was in post race analysis

anyway, heres a pretty well balanced article

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/45716086

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by GT6

....if you stand up and cry "foul" then perhaps something can be done to punish those that do it.

No chance. There was no foul so no punishment can follow - unless the FIA decide to do something about prohibiting team orders. In the absence of that, it will continue, whether overtly or otherwise.

As I've said several times already, I'm dead against team orders, however all the time that it is legal for a team manager to impose them, he or she will when the need arises. There's nothing to be gained by frothing at the mouth over it.......

[chillibowl]

i recall that Lauda was very adamant against teams orders (after multi 21 gate i think) and it was essentially a philosophy that continued through the LH vs NR seasons (with some minor hiccups of course).

even last year (Hungary 2017?) VB was asked to move over for LH to try to take it to the Ferrari race leaders but ultimately came up short so gave the place back to VB before the end of the race.

anyways, i wonder how differently the decision would have played out if Lauda had been healthy enough to be in attendance?

[GT6]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

No chance. There was no foul so no punishment can follow - unless the FIA decide to do something about prohibiting team orders. In the absence of that, it will continue, whether overtly or otherwise.

As I've said several times already, I'm dead against team orders, however all the time that it is legal for a team manager to impose them, he or she will when the need arises. There's nothing to be gained by frothing at the mouth over it.......

Well if you are against it then shout and shout loud otherwise it will continue, make the people doing it aware that it belittles the team, the manufacturer and the drivers, rolling over and saying it is ok will mean Motorsport is the loser. As F! struggles to attract sponsorship and loses out to other sports the organisers will eventually need to clean up otherwise they will lose money, and that, above all else will change their minds.

[Aysedasi]

Where would I shout Simon? Here? Write to my MP? Write to Jean Todt or Toto Woolf?

[GT6]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Where would I shout Simon? Here? Write to my MP? Write to Jean Todt or Toto Woolf?

Rest assured the people at Mercedes and at the top in F! monitor things and if they see it is effecting their business they will take note, both will have teams of people employed to see how people react to questionable things and will react if they think it is in their best interest.

[Aysedasi]

OK. But I guess they've got that point already. Whether it will make a jot of difference at the next GP if Bottas is in front of Hamilton - I doubt. Unless Vettel is already out, perhaps.....

[chillibowl]

no doubt twitter outrage can force a company to change their approach.

that said, LH is immensely popular among the twitter brigade (i think he has twice as many followers as the Merc f1 team feed). so i suspect most of the tweets are in favour of Merc supporting their favorite driver.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I remember seeing a piece where they said that they could see a blister, albeit small. think it was in post race analysis

anyway, heres a pretty well balanced article

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/45716086

Maybe DC changed his mind?

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i recall that Lauda was very adamant against teams orders (after multi 21 gate i think) and it was essentially a philosophy that continued through the LH vs NR seasons (with some minor hiccups of course).

Interestingly enough, in that very race, Hamilton got third place due to Mercedes team orders telling them to hold position.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Interestingly enough, in that very race, Hamilton got third place due to Mercedes team orders telling them to hold position.

i forgot about that part!