Prototypes vs Daytona Prototypes(close racing)

[davehenrie]

Granted it's early in the various seasons, but with the exception of Sebring, there hasn't been a-lot of close finishes in either the ALMS or LMS. The 2nd race for the DP cars at VIR ended in another nail-biting finish just like the Rolex 24hr event. What is it going to take to get the various ACO protos on a more level playing field so the races end with actual battles to the line instead of Motoring around the last few hours holding station?

Yes the Aston made a great comeback to catch the Pesca at Catalunya, but by the end, there was a gap large enough so the camera had to wait for the 2nd place car to finally appear.

Being a tech-geek, I favor the ACO over Grand AM, but I have to admit...a long snakey line of DP cars bouncing though the esses at VIR is a very dramatic image. And, if you saw the Speed telecast of VIR, the shot near the beginning of the Mazda GT laterally cresting over a small rise and getting all 4 tires in the air was breathtaking. I can just imagine my stomach going 1 way while the car pulled itself back in the other direction.

dh

[ger80]

count the FCY

[Lola T70]

and the fact in Daytona the winning car was underweight by 12lbs, or if you add in margin for error after race of 6, they were light by 18lbs from what you would normally expect.

It would have been not so close if they came in to rectify this oil loss issue they had or were running without it.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by Lola T70

and the fact in Daytona the winning car was underweight by 12lbs, or if you add in margin for error after race of 6, they were light by 18lbs from what you would normally expect.

It would have been not so close if they came in to rectify this oil loss issue they had or were running without it.

Yeah, they were underweight, but there were 4 cars on the same lap at the end. When has that ever happened at Le Mans? While I agree most of the close finishes are sort of manufactured by how they manage the race, it is still close interesting racing. The question was, how can we achieve similar finishes in ALMS/LMS? I believe they actually did a pretty good job of that over the last few seasons with the Audi-Porsche-Acura cars all finishing many races on the same lap in ALMS and Peugeot-Audi in LMS. This year is a year we're just going to have to survive. Even so, we had a pretty good finish at Sebring and LMS is pretty close without the Deisels running away with things.

DK

[Danske]

I suppose LMP2 could mandate that all parts (including tires) be available to all competitors in order to be homologated, but I'd also imagine some parties would throw massive fits over that.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Yeah, they were underweight, but there were 4 cars on the same lap at the end. When has that ever happened at Le Mans? While I agree most of the close finishes are sort of manufactured by how they manage the race, it is still close interesting racing. The question was, how can we achieve similar finishes in ALMS/LMS? I believe they actually did a pretty good job of that over the last few seasons with the Audi-Porsche-Acura cars all finishing many races on the same lap in ALMS and Peugeot-Audi in LMS. This year is a year we're just going to have to survive. Even so, we had a pretty good finish at Sebring and LMS is pretty close without the Deisels running away with things.

DK

Got it in one there.

The ACOs latest restrictions on the diesels should further tighten the field on ACO sportscar racing, however a works team will almost always be quicker than a privateer.

[cptkablamo]

Don't forget that the ALMS last year had at least half a dozen late race passes for the lead and quite a number of nail biting finishes - both cars produce great racing...And as a concept I like the Grand Am concept and think that the parts that can be fitted to various chassis is a good one for maintaining costs but allowing different manufacturers in and allowing visual differences to cars...something that Indycars should use

Just if those DPs were prettier...

[fieldodreams79]

Uggg....
here we go again

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Yeah, they were underweight, but there were 4 cars on the same lap at the end. When has that ever happened at Le Mans? While I agree most of the close finishes are sort of manufactured by how they manage the race, it is still close interesting racing. The question was, how can we achieve similar finishes in ALMS/LMS? I believe they actually did a pretty good job of that over the last few seasons with the Audi-Porsche-Acura cars all finishing many races on the same lap in ALMS and Peugeot-Audi in LMS. This year is a year we're just going to have to survive. Even so, we had a pretty good finish at Sebring and LMS is pretty close without the Deisels running away with things.

DK

There were 24 full course cautions or something like that in the Daytona 24 hrs. I am sure if Le Mans had that many, there would be more than 4 cars on the lead lap.

[Fogelhund]

Having done the analysis in the prior two seasons, the differences in Margin of Victory, and Yellow flag periods between Grand Am and ALMS are small enough to be inconsequential.

[Gingers4Justice]

Seeing DP prototypes going down the Esses would be unpleasant - Ugly, wierd looking things going as fast a Fiat Cinquecento. I think that its absolutely fine as it is, the Audis and Pugs are very close on track these days; Le Mans 2008, Petit Le Mans 2008, even Sebring this year - and you only have to go back four years to 2004 to get the least really close finish at Le Mans - and in recent years, Daytona has been very dull, it had a lucky year this year,

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

you only have to go back four years to 2004 to get the least really close finish at Le Mans - and in recent years, Daytona has been very dull, it had a lucky year this year,

Audi won by 10 laps in 2007, you call that close? No Rolex has had that margin of victory in a long time.

DK

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Audi won by 10 laps in 2007, you call that close? No Rolex has had that margin of victory in a long time.

DK

I will remind you again that the Rolex has very many full course cautions to help aid in the smaller margin of victory times.

[Mal]

Chalk and Cheese.

I for one found the Drama of Le Mans 2008 with just 2 cars in a strategic and titanic battle lasting for many hours as a pure battle without much artificial interference to be far more dramatic and fascinating than what I saw of Daytona (although this year was definately the best of the post DP years). To me the cars do not have to be sharing the same piece of tarmac to produce a good race.

If you want close racing door handle to door handle then why delude yourself - you might as well watch Nascar. Endurance racing to me is about a battle between the cars the drivers and the mechanics all working as a team to outwit the next team over a long period of time. This will not naturally regularly produce wheel to wheel finishes unless they are artificially introduced.

DP is about keeping yourself out of trouble in the hunt on the lead lap until the final few lap sprint to the flag.

Just my opinion and I totally respect that others will have different opinions and like different things for different reasons. We are not all clones after all.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Ryan

I will remind you again that the Rolex has very many full course cautions to help aid in the smaller margin of victory times.

I will remind you that Daytona has roughly 10 cars per kilometer of track, whereas Le Mans has about 4.5. Let's tal kagain about cautions when there are 130 cars racing at Le Mans.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I will remind you that Daytona has roughly 10 cars per kilometer of track, whereas Le Mans has about 4.5. Let's tal kagain about cautions when there are 130 cars racing at Le Mans.

Thats all well and good but the European policy to cautions is very different to the US whether it be Daytona Lemans, LMS, DP or ALMS.

So whilst the number of cars has an effect it is by no means the only reason there are many more cautions at Daytona than there are at Le Mans. Many of the cautions at Daytona would be dealt with by local yellows at le Mans.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by dxk1

While I agree most of the close finishes are sort of manufactured by how they manage the race, it is still close interesting racing. The question was, how can we achieve similar finishes in ALMS/LMS?
DK

DX:
WHY?

It is supposed to be competition, best car wins; not a pretty pre-formed parade.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

DX:
WHY?

It is supposed to be competition, best car wins; not a pretty pre-formed parade.

The Penske vs Audi battles in ALMS a year or two ago were not pre-formed, although they were assisted some by stretching of the ACO rules.
But the current P1/P2 gulf precludes any close competition here in the States and for some reason, even with the huge number of Prototypes of both classes in LMS, they can't find near equals yet. (the new Pesca may match the LAM (Lola Aston Martin) but I'm not confident the petrol cars will match up with the Diesels, even with the new changes.

dh