Need some help with Escort Mk1 1974 (Group 2 !!)

[tony griffiths]

Any one in need of Lucas injection parts can supply either new and sometimes used !

[morninggents]

My ex-Broadspeed contact says that a very light single leaf spring was used with teflon sliders between the axle u-bolts. The weight bearing stresses and springing medium was coil over shock absorbers. Broadspeed called them 'helper springs'. He said they also used torsion bars at some point.

I'll ask if he has any period photos.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by morninggents

My ex-Broadspeed contact says that a very light single leaf spring was used with teflon sliders between the axle u-bolts. The weight bearing stresses and springing medium was coil over shock absorbers. Broadspeed called them 'helper springs'. He said they also used torsion bars at some point.

I'll ask if he has any period photos.

Cheers for that- think that would be what AVO is looking for. He is applying for HTP papers for an early RS1600 race car and FIA have asked for evidence that coilovers were used in that period. They seem to accept that they were used later on.......

If anyone else can come up with pictures or written info to support, please shout! I havn't been able to find anything except anecdotal stuff.

[Al Weyman]

Ha ha a dodge in period so allowable now, I bet thats not what the FIA meant when they penned the rules, historic racing yer gotta luv it.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Ha ha a dodge in period so allowable now, I bet thats not what the FIA meant when they penned the rules, historic racing yer gotta luv it.

Al, it complied to the rules in period so it complies now.....

[Al Weyman]

As did the RX3 being a saloon car lol! Yeah I know I just find it amusing.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

As did the RX3 being a saloon car lol! Yeah I know I just find it amusing.

And RX7 and Porsche 911....... Maybe good title for new thread, GTs that were saloons!

[Al Weyman]

Yes sorry meant RX7

[Avo]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Cheers for that- think that would be what AVO is looking for. He is applying for HTP papers for an early RS1600 race car and FIA have asked for evidence that coilovers were used in that period. They seem to accept that they were used later on.......

If anyone else can come up with pictures or written info to support, please shout! I havn't been able to find anything except anecdotal stuff.

Hi, that is right Mike, FIA agrees in the fact that it was allowed to add springs, but the Historical regulations defines "free/ allowed acording to apppendix J" as "you still have to show proof of usage in the period".

FIA are also asking about evidence that they used Alloy radiator on the RS1600 in this period. Does anybody know if this was used in the period?

Avo

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

And RX7 and Porsche 911....... Maybe good title for new thread, GTs that were saloons!

thought we already put that one to bed in the 6 hours thread

[Al Weyman]

Nah it'll never go away lol!

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Nah it'll never go away lol!

A bit like the 427 cu. in. alloy-blocked bowtie motor homologated and used in Gp.2 in the series II Z28 Camaro?

[Al Weyman]

Yeah I know what a joke that was by any stretch of the imagination. Wasnt it around 50 made in an aftermarket garage, about 20 odd actually sold the rest broken to remove the engines for CanAM cars.

[Clive Brown]

As I understand it, 56 were supplied in Corvettes, 2 were supplied in series-1 shaped ZL1 Camaros, and the rest went to Skunkworks projects.

How many d'ja need, Al?

[Al Weyman]

So how many in the 2nd Gen as I understand it very few, how many had to be made to homologate?

[Clive Brown]

None in the second generation whatsoever....

I'm not sure how many complete cars fitted with the production option motor were nominally needed to homologate the package into Group 2, either as supplied complete, or as kits of parts for retrofit.

Someone on this Forum is sure to know!

Now a ZL-1 motor in an RX-7; that would make one helluva Group 1 car....

[Mike Bell]

Anyone help with Avo's question regarding evidence of alloy radiator being used in 1971 Gp2 RS1600?

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

None in the second generation whatsoever....

I'm not sure how many complete cars fitted with the production option motor were nominally needed to homologate the package into Group 2, either as supplied complete, or as kits of parts for retrofit.

Someone on this Forum is sure to know!

Now a ZL-1 motor in an RX-7; that would make one helluva Group 1 car....

So how was big Frank allowed to enter the 2nd Gen? A question I have always wanted the answer to. And appologise AVO for going off topic but while I have Clive's attention.....

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

And appologise AVO for going off topic.

Yes Al you are off topic. You could always start another thread.....

[Al Weyman]

Something that never happens here!

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I'll ask if he has any period photos.

Sorry, ex-Broadspeed man has no period photos. Evidently cameras weren't welcome in the workshop. Can't think why!

[Clive Brown]

I am pretty certain that substitution of the original radiator by another of different size/construction/materials was permitted. Auxiliary radiators were also allowed, but I seem to recall that there was something in the regulations about the radiator having to be approximately in the original location.

The front rad. that the Imps used was ostensibly the heater matrix, but was still in the front of the car, so the interpretation placed upon 'original location' was fairly liberal.

Al, as for the second generation Camaro being allowed to use the ZL1 motor, I can't work it out either, but it must have been on the papers for the second generation car because unlike Walkinshaw, Frank might have been ingenious, but he was certainly no cheat.

[brown dog]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

I am pretty certain that substitution of the original radiator by another of different size/construction/materials was permitted. Auxiliary radiators were also allowed, but I seem to recall that there was something in the regulations about the radiator having to be approximately in the original location.

The Gp2 "Cologne" Capri RS3100 of 1974 had two small radiators, one placed in front of each rear wheel, and only the engine oil cooler up front. So not sure how this was achieved if the rules stated "original location"?

I guess we need to see a copy of the rules from the period, does anyone have a copy they can post?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by brown dog

The Gp2 "Cologne" Capri RS3100 of 1974 had two small radiators, one placed in front of each rear wheel, and only the engine oil cooler up front. So not sure how this was achieved if the rules stated "original location"?

I guess we need to see a copy of the rules from the period, does anyone have a copy they can post?

I'll post a link to AppJ tomorrow, when I can find right one for the year. (It's been a long day....)

[Mike Bell]

OK here are the relevant pages to Gp2 App J 1971

As you can see from top of page 4 it says:-

"There is complete freedom as regards the water radiator and its capacity. Its location

may be changed provided no modification is entailed either to the outside or to the inside (cockpit) of the coachwork."

And here are regs for Gp2 App J 1975 Although other things changed the paragraph on radiators is exactly same.

So in conclusion the rad could have been moved and could have been made of plastic, cardboard, aluminium....

BUT, nowadays and for HTPs the FIA only allow modifications that were actually used, so if you fit a cardboard radiator you will have to prove it was used in period. Onus is on you to prove, not FIA to disprove. This is the difficult bit where no photos or written eveidence can be found. Dare I also add that this rule is not consistent....

We know about the Capri rads because of all the period photos and cars that still exist. Sometimes period cutaway drawings and road/track tests unearth useful info. Autosport, books on Broadspeed, etc.

From what have learned from Avo's posts, he has presented his car for HTP inspection without rear leaf springs. (Dummy or otherwise, they are still 'main' springs.) My take is that had these been fitted then the question of coilovers would not have arisen. It may be possible to call the FIAs bluff on the radiator issue by just by pointing out the relevant App J paragraph- it could work.....