Driving standards/ stewarding

[Akrapovic]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/an...iving/6798618/

Autosport says it was not investigated and noted by Race Control.

However, this doesn't change the point does it. Who looks at 2021 F1 race control and thinks "Well that went well?" Also, I REALLY disagree with the idea of Masi being completely innocent of stewards decisions. It's his ship. And he's been making poor calls constantly. It's up to the race director to set the example and tone of how things will be done - and the tone he is setting is one of inconsistency, and ignoring regulations to create drama.

He referred Vettel to the stewards in Bahrain for ignoring a yellow flag that did not exist - because neither he, nor the marshals displayed a yellow flag for Maze off the circuit at T1. So Vettel was penalised for not slowing down for a yellow flag that didn't happen. Masi was also involved in the reprimand of 4 drivers for wearing LGBTQ+ T-Shirts in Hungary.

To call F1s race officiating a sh*t-show is being polite. Regardless of who you support, it's been an inconsistent mess where they jack-knife from one issue to the next.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/an...iving/6798618/

Autosport says it was not investigated and noted by Race Control.

However, this doesn't change the point does it. Who looks at 2021 F1 race control and thinks "Well that went well?" Also, I REALLY disagree with the idea of Masi being completely innocent of stewards decisions. It's his ship. And he's been making poor calls constantly. It's up to the race director to set the example and tone of how things will be done - and the tone he is setting is one of inconsistency, and ignoring regulations to create drama.

He referred Vettel to the stewards in Bahrain for ignoring a yellow flag that did not exist - because neither he, nor the marshals displayed a yellow flag for Maze off the circuit at T1. So Vettel was penalised for not slowing down for a yellow flag that didn't happen. Masi was also involved in the reprimand of 4 drivers for wearing LGBTQ+ T-Shirts in Hungary.

To call F1s race officiating a sh*t-show is being polite. Regardless of who you support, it's been an inconsistent mess where they jack-knife from one issue to the next.

This is directly from the very site you linked:

"This is a key part of the reason why Mercedes’ right of review request was denied, because when the stewards – and not Masi – decided that there was no need for an investigation into Verstappen’s move, fast back up the inside line on the left of Hamilton’s Mercedes just ahead of the Turn 4 apex, they had therefore reached a “discretionary decision”."


Personally I think the last two races left room for improvement regarding race direction to put it mildly and the whole stewarding approach needs reviewing. That said, everyone agreed they wanted the last race to end under the green flag. Doing so at any cost requires an unconventional approach. In this case, the wrong one in my view.

The shenanigans between Lewis and Max at Jeddah would've made it hard for any race director, but indeed could've been handled better.


If I see Masi at work, I see a guy with unusual high level of multi-tasking, an hands on approach regarding barrier repairs and general circuit related stuff and a calm demeanour when the likes of Horner and Wolff are barking in his ear. To me the mistakes being made (which there were indeed to many of) are somewhat puzzling to me and don't correlate with the overall impression I get from the guy.

Therefore I think the earlier mentioned changes should be considered first. Firstly and mostly team bosses jumping into your ear exactly when you need full focus and time at deciding the best approach.

[Akrapovic]

Also from the link:

“the race director [Michael Masi] asked the stewards for their view and stated that it was going to be ‘Noted’ on the timing screens”.

This is not the same as the matter being officially referred to the stewards - hence why there is not official document from the stewards.

Originally Posted by Taxi645

The shenanigans between Lewis and Max at Jeddah would've made it hard for any race director, but indeed could've been handled better.

Ignore Lewis and Max and look at the rest of the mess of that weekend. We had multiple drivers for multiple laps calling for the race to be neutralised due to debris. We had the race director move cars back into a random grid, in a never seen before type decision. We had bizarre safety cars which became reds. Even outside of Lewis and Max, does anyone look at that and go "Hey good job man".

Include Lewis and Max and suddenly you get the race director telling off Lewis WITHOUT referring to the stewards, for not leaving a cars width...which is hilariously inconsistent given the goings on of the week before.

Also, as was alluded to on the Sky coverage - Masi has decided to take on more in the race control booth than what Charlie did. Charlie surrounded himself with more people than Michael does. If he is struggling with the insane amount of multi-tasking he has to do, then delegation is the job here.

I also agree they could've ended the race under green flag by the way. There was two ways of doing that legally. Don't release the lapped cars, or red flag the race (and red flagging the race is something they did in Baku, which worked well). Instead, they decided to ignore both of these options, and choose one which didn't fit the rules.

Again for clarification: I don't care that Max won. I don't like Max or Lewis. I just care that race control appear to be unable to function in a competent or consistent way. And this has been an issue for a while (see Bahrain and Hungary), and is only just coming to light now because it directly effected the title battle for the last 4 races.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Also from the link:

“the race director [Michael Masi] asked the stewards for their view and stated that it was going to be ‘Noted’ on the timing screens”.

This is not the same as the matter being officially referred to the stewards - hence why there is not official document from the stewards.

Let's park this.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Ignore Lewis and Max and look at the rest of the mess of that weekend. We had multiple drivers for multiple laps calling for the race to be neutralised due to debris.

Something which will have happened more often, but perhaps not as much broadcasted. You need time to asses the situation and try to make sure you are not being sucked into a decision by a driver who has an interest in a certain decision. Something drivers are quite keen on.

We had the race director move cars back into a random grid, in a never seen before type decision.

Has it never taking place or again was it just never broadcasted?

Also, as was alluded to on the Sky coverage - Masi has decided to take on more in the race control booth than what Charlie did. Charlie surrounded himself with more people than Michael does. If he is struggling with the insane amount of multi-tasking he has to do, then delegation is the job here.

Probably that indeed wasn't the best of ideas.

I also agree they could've ended the race under green flag by the way. There was two ways of doing that legally. Don't release the lapped cars, or red flag the race (and red flagging the race is something they did in Baku, which worked well). Instead, they decided to ignore both of these options, and choose one which didn't fit the rules.

I would've also have preferred both options, but calling a red flag without sufficient safety need would have also been against the rules. I still would have preferred that option over the chosen one. I would've also preferred the cars may not unlap option over the chosen one. This was the initial decision. It would be interesting to know what exactly let him to change his mind. Probably we will never know.

[Akrapovic]

I won't do the quote thing because we'll just make a mess

Regarding the random grid: It had nothing to do with the broadcasting. Can you think of a time when a grid was set like that before? In an order which had not actually occurred? Even ignoring the fact that Red Bull got to choose their own penalty?

And on your final point I agree. But I'd like to add another point to it - Masi changing his mind is extremely problematic, as teams make strategy calls based on the regulations, and based on the race directors decisions. If the race director does not obey the regulations, and/or changes his mind, then the teams cannot be expected to make decent strategy calls, can they?

So we arrive back at the same conclusion. It's difficult to look at F1 2021 and believe that the ones running the show are competent. I was already extremely unimpressed after the Vettel incidents and slightly surprised there was not more talk of it. Fortunately, the Lewis/Max incidents have highlighted my points well enough.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I won't do the quote thing because we'll just make a mess

Regarding the random grid: It had nothing to do with the broadcasting. Can you think of a time when a grid was set like that before? In an order which had not actually occurred? Even ignoring the fact that Red Bull got to choose their own penalty?

Well we're seeing a lot of Red flags this year. What happens drivers get told to give their position back otherwise it will go to the stewards. In this case it was about the red flag grid. Personally I did not like the way it was done/sounded. It sounded too much like a negotiation, when it should've been this is the verdict, take it or it will go to the stewards.

And on your final point I agree. But I'd like to add another point to it - Masi changing his mind is extremely problematic, as teams make strategy calls based on the regulations, and based on the race directors decisions. If the race director does not obey the regulations, and/or changes his mind, then the teams cannot be expected to make decent strategy calls, can they?

The will always be a certain amount of unpredictability on what RC will decide. That's normal. Will is be only VSC or SC, will it a be a red flag? Will something be forwarded to the stewards? As long as the decisions make sense and is within the rules it's ok in my book. I would find it very interesting to know if Masi after his call that cars may not unlap, was contacted by his superiors. If so, I wonder if Charlie would've stuck to his original decision.

So we arrive back at the same conclusion. It's difficult to look at F1 2021 and believe that the ones running the show are competent. I was already extremely unimpressed after the Vettel incidents and slightly surprised there was not more talk of it. Fortunately, the Lewis/Max incidents have highlighted my points well enough.

We don't disagree all that much about whether things were handled well or not. We just disagree somewhat about how bad it was and what conclusions we should draw. Your conclusion; his head must role (which could be the right conclusion, for me it is too early to tell), my conclusion is; let's looks what we can improve on the way things are organized before sacrificing someone who could possibly a great race director in a better setting and after more experience. As you will know, you learn the most from your mistakes.

[crmalcolm]

A query to improve my understanding if I may?

Who was the clerk of the course for the Abu Dhabi event?

As I understand, the CotC is usually the person who decides (and manages) the use of Red Flag/SC/VSC. It seems that Masi overrode the CotC authority?

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A query to improve my understanding if I may?

Who was the clerk of the course for the Abu Dhabi event?

As I understand, the CotC is usually the person who decides (and manages) the use of Red Flag/SC/VSC. It seems that Masi overrode the CotC authority?

Throughout this whole saga I have suspected that Masi was influenced from above to make the rushed decision. Whether that was from the CotC or more commercialised pressures is the question we need to know.
I really don't believe he would have unilaterally made the decision.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Throughout this whole saga I have suspected that Masi was influenced from above to make the rushed decision. Whether that was from the CotC or more commercialised pressures is the question we need to know.
I really don't believe he would have unilaterally made the decision.

I agree. He seemed pretty settled on there being no wave by, then, all of a sudden, very soon after he was asked to wave the lapped cars by by RBR, he changed his mind. There was another influence there, be it RBR, the CotC or someone else.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A query to improve my understanding if I may?

Who was the clerk of the course for the Abu Dhabi event?

As I understand, the CotC is usually the person who decides (and manages) the use of Red Flag/SC/VSC. It seems that Masi overrode the CotC authority?

Clerk of the course is the most senior local - sits under the race director in terms of F1 structure. The race director specifically manages the items that you mention.

[Akrapovic]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...q6ZqGZVHZR4krY

“The circumstances surrounding the use of the Safety Car following the incident of driver Nicholas Latifi, and the related communications between the FIA Race Direction team and the Formula 1 teams, have notably generated significant misunderstanding and reactions from Formula 1 teams, drivers and fans,” said the statement.”

Ah I see. Everybody else misunderstands it. Everybody.

I've never been gaslit by an organisation before. That's an interesting tactic.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Clerk of the course is the most senior local - sits under the race director in terms of F1 structure. The race director specifically manages the items that you mention.

I think this is where I (or the regulations) are getting confused.

15.3 says that the RD has 'overriding authority' over the CotC for those matters.
But 48.12 and 48.13 start with the terms:
'If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so' and 'When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car' respectively.

So in the case at Abu Dhabi - If Masi was working to 15.3, he had the authority to suspend the race (red flag) 'if he deems it unsafe to continue'.
If 48.13 is being used as the reason for the SC to be brought in when it was, that is the CotC's responsibility to determine if the track is safe.

As I understand it - deploying the SC or suspending the race are within the authority of the RD. But the bringing in of the SC is a CotC responsibility only.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think this is where I (or the regulations) are getting confused.

As I understand it - deploying the SC or suspending the race are within the authority of the RD. But the bringing in of the SC is a CotC responsibility only.

Not quite - the best way to explain it is that the COC is the top local, knows the track well, runs the local officials. So the COC needs to advise the RD that the track is safe, then the RD brings the SC in.

In other words, as per the rules, when the COC considers it safe. Once the COC considers it safe & has advised the RD of that, the RD with over-riding authority then directs the SC.

[wnut]

Can anyone remember a safety car deployment in the recent past where the backmarkers were kept in position and not allowed to unlap themselves?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by wnut

Can anyone remember a safety car deployment in the recent past where the backmarkers were kept in position and not allowed to unlap themselves?

IIRC -
2020 Bahrain GP (and race finished under SC).
2019 Bahrain GP (and race finished under SC).
2015 Mexico GP.
2015 Chinese GP. (finish behind SC).
2012 Brazil GP. (finish behind SC).

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

IIRC -
2020 Bahrain GP (and race finished under SC).
2019 Bahrain GP (and race finished under SC).
2015 Mexico GP.
2015 Chinese GP. (finish behind SC).
2012 Brazil GP. (finish behind SC).

Thanks.

Also need to think about when the backmarkers unlapping process was introduced - my memory tells me that it was only a couple of years ago - but I could be completely wrong on that.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

IIRC -
2020 Bahrain GP (and race finished under SC).
2019 Bahrain GP (and race finished under SC).
2015 Mexico GP.
2015 Chinese GP. (finish behind SC).
2012 Brazil GP. (finish behind SC).

Thank you CR.

So if the race is to be re-started then the backmarkers have been removed from between the leaders in all instances since Mexico 2015?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by wnut

Thank you CR.

So if the race is to be re-started then the backmarkers have been removed from between the leaders in all instances since Mexico 2015?

I think so. However, when a SC has occurred in the last 10 laps of a race that has always taken longer than 4 laps to do so.

The unlapping was reinstated to the regulations for the 2012 season.

[Anyopenroad]

To extend that line of questioning, what is the latest point at which a SC has been called, the incident cleared, lapped cars unlapped and at least one green lap completed?

My first thought when Latifi crashed was ‘all over, finish under SC’ as I could not envisage all the above happening in the laps remaining.

Of course this does depend on the nature of the crash - a retrieval from an awkward spot is not the same as clearing the debris from a big wreck.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

To extend that line of questioning, what is the latest point at which a SC has been called, the incident cleared, lapped cars unlapped and at least one green lap completed?

2020 Sakhir - called lap 63, ended lap 69, race distance 87 laps.
2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - called lap 51, ended lap 57, race 63 laps.

As far as I can tell - every time the SC has seen cars unlapping themselves, it has taken at least one lap longer than this occasion at Abu Dhabi.
Every other time it has been in the late laps of the race, they have either kept the lapped cars behind until the finish or moved to a red flag and declared the result.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...q6ZqGZVHZR4krY



Ah I see. Everybody else misunderstands it. Everybody.

I've never been gaslit by an organisation before. That's an interesting tactic.

Really hope this gets dragged through the courts now. Sod it.

I mean obviously it won't now, but this is annoying.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Really hope this gets dragged through the courts now. Sod it.

I mean obviously it won't now, but this is annoying.

Nah, not annoying, you're just misunderstanding - everything......

[Knowlesy]

We are but mere plebs really. We can't hope to understand the complexities of not bothering with the rules - mainly because we are the only ones who actually have to live by them.

[steve_r]

Is someone going to officially apologise to the FIA on behalf of this forum for misunderstanding the final race, or should we all apologise to the FIA individually?

Grateful for some clarification on this from the mods.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Is someone going to officially apologise to the FIA on behalf of this forum for misunderstanding the final race, or should we all apologise to the FIA individually?

Grateful for some clarification on this from the mods.

We can add the apology as a rider in our Christmas card to the FIA......