Driving standards/ stewarding

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

There is a difference between 'likely' and 'will'.

I can't recall Hamilton saying he knew the gap was going to close (before the incident). His words after were - "With Max, you know he's very aggressive. And then today, I mean I was fully alongside him, and I didn't have enough space,"

That is very different to knowing in advance that a collision will occur.

Just because he didn’t say it, that doesn’t mean he didn’t know.

Anybody who’s ever actually raced at Silverstone knows there is absolutely no way through there like that.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Anybody who’s ever actually raced at Silverstone knows there is absolutely no way through there like that.

I think I'll take the word of current F1 drivers over a forum poster.

Leclerc: "Obviously there was space on the inside. Maybe Lewis was not completely at the apex but it's also true that Max was quite aggressive on the outside."

Ricciardo: "It is hard. They are racing so hard and it looked like Max was giving him room, but when you come so close in these high-speed corners you lose downforce"

But - in terms of whether Hamilton knew there would be a collision - it is just speculation unless he admits so.
Verstappen has admitted that he knew there would be a collision in advance of choosing to take the action he did in Brazil.

What is interesting - in terms of stewarding - is that the penalties are not consistent.
Hamilton received a 10s penalty and two penalty points on his super licence for being predominantly to blame in causing a collision.
Verstappen received a 5s penalty and two penalty points on his super licence for being predominantly to blame in causing a collision.

[peebee2]

The world simply isn’t as black and white as you’d clearly love it to be…

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Doesn't mean Max deliberately smashed into his car.

Vettel in Baku 2017 is deliberate crashing into another driver. Max in Brazil 2022 is not.

Just to pick up on this point because precision of language is inportant.

I am not suggesting Verstappen “deliberately” drove into Hamilton. Rather, he threw his car up the inside knowing that there would be a collision unless Hamilton backed out. But he also knew Hamilton was very unlikely to back out. It’s a fine line, but that is not “deliberate” it is reckless, which is why I used the word reckless and not the word deliberate.

Also, this isn’t just us blowing smoke on a forum, it’s what Verstappen actually said..

[dsg]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

What is interesting - in terms of stewarding - is that the penalties are not consistent.
Hamilton received a 10s penalty and two penalty points on his super licence for being predominantly to blame in causing a collision.
Verstappen received a 5s penalty and two penalty points on his super licence for being predominantly to blame in causing a collision.

Has anyone been given a 10 second penalty this year for causing a collision? I can only remember 5 second penalties being issued.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by peebee2

The world simply isn’t as black and white as you’d clearly love it to be…

This is your repeated refrain on this and the cost cap thread:

It’s complicated
What about [X]
The rules aren’t clear
Application is inconsistent
The paddock thinks…
I’m an insider, I get it and you don’t

Interestingly you only seem to apply this type of whataboutery and gaslighting to things involving Red Bull/Verstappen. On topics like Silverstone apparently it IS black and white because “everybody knows” even though, to judge from what other drivers said, they don’t…

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by dsg

Has anyone been given a 10 second penalty this year for causing a collision? I can only remember 5 second penalties being issued.

The only time penalties that were not 5 seconds this season (IIRC) were:

10 seconds - Stroll, Brazilian GP - Dangerous Manouevre
10 seconds - Ricciardo, Mexican GP - Causing a collision
10 seconds - Gasly, US GP - Failure to serve a penalty

In Ricciardo's case, he was found to be 'wholly to blame' and not 'predominantly at fault'. Maybe the penalty if you are only predominantly at fault has dropped to 5 seconds?

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

In general, I'm in favour of drivers simply giving room if there is any sort of overlap, but the main challenge for them is to do so when an overtaking driver first gets any part of their car in front of them, i.e. approaching an apex or on exiting a corner, or when exiting a corner and trying to run their car out on the natural racing line when there is still an overtaking car in the vicinity with any overlap.

Thank you, for trying to get the thread back on track. Yes, I think drivers would have difficulty adjusting to the fact they would have to leave other cars more room on track. This would probably be a challenge.

I think many forget that both cars lines are compromised in these situation. The outside car can't use the inner curb (because having to leave room) so needs to run a tighter line than the ideal racing line. Same goes for the inside guy, his entry and exit are tighter (because he has to leave room) so also his speed is compromised.

If overtaking would get slightly easier under this proposed rule, I actually think that would not be a bad change. It would mean that we could reduce the DRS effect and actually get more battles for position in the corner. Also with cars more often exiting the corner side by side (because you have to leave room), you don't need DRS to help the rear guys to close up because he is already close.

Overall I think the fighting would get much more subtle requiring much more race craft and respect for other drivers and lasting much longer than just mostly one corner.

I also think it's a bit of a gentleman vs. gladiator thing. The current rules facilitate claiming corner practises and make the chances of clashes higher. That leads to a lot of excitement and the "fan-o-shere" on the WWW goes crazy. I mean that is pretty good show right? The general public would probably prefer it. If the rules would put more emphasis on leaving room, the fights would become much more nuanced, but also longer lasting.

If you want to draw the general public into F1, perhaps all the fuss with the current rules and crashes is exactly the show they want, to get the big money in. I think the real race fan however, would generally enjoy the more subtle longer lasting battles though.

[Born Racer]

That's a very good post, in my opinion, and I would say I concur. I can't recall who was involved now, but I do remember some battles that lasted through several corners at Interlagos and they were enthralling. I think Bottas was in one of them (a driver who I've noticed leaves space). Ultimately, all this claiming the corner stuff is a bit simplistic and silly and provokes drivers' belief that overtaking is about some overlap and not actually getting past.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

That's a very good post, in my opinion, and I would say I concur. I can't recall who was involved now, but I do remember some battles that lasted through several corners at Interlagos and they were enthralling. I think Bottas was in one of them (a driver who I've noticed leaves space). Ultimately, all this claiming the corner stuff is a bit simplistic and silly and provokes drivers' belief that overtaking is about some overlap and not actually getting past.

Fully agree, in the past cars and track were very unsafe. For the sake of preserving each other life, today's practise would not be accepted. This Villeneuve-Arnoux clip has it's rough spots, but the amount of side by side driving is incredible compared to nowadays:
https://youtu.be/ogTx_7a9A90?t=47

Of course it's also the track and the cars, but for the most part, no one is squeezing the other guy off track or claiming the corner. Just 4 laps of memorable racing.

On Bottas, he indeed races very fairly. H also has character traits that are very undervalued in this age I would say, but that's for another topic.

Also wanted to add that having your front wheel centre in front of the other guys rear wheel centre means that there is already 5 feet overlap between the cars. That's almost 30% of the car length. That's already quite a bit.

[Adam43]

This along side assessment thing. It isn’t a great assessment. It is way too simplistic. We aren’t in a static environment, we are in a dynamic environment when racing.

It is very easy to get alongside, but are you doing it in a reasonably controlled manner. Does the corner have width, what is the following corner? Do you crash because you have gone in too hot, or only if the other guy pinches you when there is no need to?

The two cars don’t have many options to change as they have momentum and how you can change that when on the limit is limited.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It is very easy to get alongside, but are you doing it in a reasonably controlled manner. Does the corner have width, what is the following corner? Do you crash because you have gone in too hot, or only if the other guy pinches you when there is no need to?

This has been my point all along.

[Born Racer]

Basically, they need to give each other room as much as possible at all times. That's the only manageable approach.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Adam43

This along side assessment thing. It isn’t a great assessment. It is way too simplistic.

I think after 38 pages of discussion, reducing it to just a side to side argument is a bit of a simplification.

We aren’t in a static environment, we are in a dynamic environment when racing.

Sure, as long as you leave racing room.

It is very easy to get alongside, but are you doing it in a reasonably controlled manner.

If you don't cause a collision and you leave room and would say generally yes you done it in a controlled enough manner.

Does the corner have width, what is the following corner?

Does it matter as long as you leave room and don't cause a collision?

Do you crash because you have gone in too hot, or only if the other guy pinches you when there is no need to?

If the rules were as proposed, then it would be dependant on who left who enough room according to the stipulated regulations.

The two cars don’t have many options to change as they have momentum and how you can change that when on the limit is limited.

I think the flexibility of ego's and competitive nature is a much more limiting factor than the car's handling. Otherwise drivers would have a lot of trouble navigating a track at the limit in the first place. From about half way trough the corner till the exit a driver has a lot of options from the amount of throttle, to neutral propulsion, to slightly braking respectively reducing the arc the can take in order to leave room. Drivers competitive nature however don't tend to like options that tend more towards the latter.

Like Born racer says, just leave room.

[Taxi645]

What did you all think about the Sainz-Hamilton incident?


https://youtu.be/owJJheJzoDI?t=17



At 22s into the video Sainz does seem to let his car go wide a bit for an instant, which seemed to let Hamilton few other options. His steering was always to the left before he hit the sausage kerb.


Earlier is proposed this rule:
During a fight for position a driver may maintain or gain position by going off track if not left at least a car width on the outside on track by the competing driver.

For my taste, the way Sainz left room mid corner (or perhaps more like suggesting he was not going to) I would have preferred if they would've let Hamilton keep his position, but it was a tight call.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

This is your repeated refrain on this and the cost cap thread:

It’s complicated
What about [X]
The rules aren’t clear
Application is inconsistent
The paddock thinks…
I’m an insider, I get it and you don’t

I've never said any such thing, only pointing out where others have misunderstood and/or made assumptions.

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Interestingly you only seem to apply this type of whataboutery and gaslighting to things involving Red Bull/Verstappen. On topics like Silverstone apparently it IS black and white because “everybody knows” even though, to judge from what other drivers said, they don’t…

I'm not pro-RB at all, I just get annoyed when the likes of Merc throw things around after their years of total domination when they did what they liked but it rarely got mentioned.

As to Silverstone, it might be better to look at the exact words used rather than extrapolating that they are saying what you want them to say. There are reasons why drivers have to go through endless training on how to speak to the press and why they have PR assistants following them round with recorders.

Anyway, both these RB related issues are in the past now, everybody has moved on apart from the ever-rabid and worst of the LH fanboys.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

What did you all think about the Sainz-Hamilton incident?


https://youtu.be/owJJheJzoDI?t=17



At 22s into the video Sainz does seem to let his car go wide a bit for an instant, which seemed to let Hamilton few other options. His steering was always to the left before he hit the sausage kerb.


Earlier is proposed this rule:
During a fight for position a driver may maintain or gain position by going off track if not left at least a car width on the outside on track by the competing driver.

For my taste, the way Sainz left room mid corner (or perhaps more like suggesting he was not going to) I would have preferred if they would've let Hamilton keep his position, but it was a tight call.

I agree with your assessment.

The way I try to look at these things is as if there was no run off. Because you're meant to leave a cars width. Did Carlos leave a proper space for Lewis? It doesn't appear so. He didn't do anything mad like deliberately push him off, but there isn't really room for Lewis there.

So if there was a wall there, Lewis would've hit it, Carlos would've been collected by Lewis, and we'd all be saying Carlos is an idiot for it. What Carlos did only looks fine and legal when there's tarmac to run over.

So whilst I'm sure Carlos didn't do anything malicious or on purpose, he did go deeper into the corner than normal, he didn't leave a cars width, and on a day with a wall he would've retired with Lewis.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

I think after 38 pages of discussion, reducing it to just a side to side argument is a bit of a simplification.

Are you saying that I was being too simplistic, because that’s the opposite of what I was doing! I was saying there is more to consider.

The momentum of a car and the grip of the tyres prevent the ability to always leave room. At any given instance the options for a driver are limited.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Anyway, both these RB related issues are in the past now, everybody has moved on apart from the ever-rabid and worst of the LH fanboys.

You brought it up, not me!

I’m not nearly as pro-Hamilton as I am anti-Red Bull, so that tired little jibe falls flat (you’re not actually a very good troll, much as you try to be). I was actually excited by the prospect of a Ferrari revival at the start of the year. I’d also choose a McLaren renaissance over another year of Mercedes wins. I admire and respect Hamilton but a large part of me wishes he had quit after last year. There are exciting young drivers in the sport and I’d like to see them given a chance.

[Adam43]

Time for a timely reminder:

Posting in the F1 Forum - PLEASE READ

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I agree with your assessment.

The way I try to look at these things is as if there was no run off. Because you're meant to leave a cars width. Did Carlos leave a proper space for Lewis? It doesn't appear so. He didn't do anything mad like deliberately push him off, but there isn't really room for Lewis there.

So if there was a wall there, Lewis would've hit it, Carlos would've been collected by Lewis, and we'd all be saying Carlos is an idiot for it. What Carlos did only looks fine and legal when there's tarmac to run over.

So whilst I'm sure Carlos didn't do anything malicious or on purpose, he did go deeper into the corner than normal, he didn't leave a cars width, and on a day with a wall he would've retired with Lewis.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Adam43

Are you saying that I was being too simplistic, because that’s the opposite of what I was doing! I was saying there is more to consider.

No I didn't say your argument was simplistic, I was saying that dismissing the made argument for leaving room and how to so as simplistic, in itself is simplistic when looking at all the discussion we've already had in this thread. There is a difference of opinion however on how much control a driver has over racing situations in order to leave racing room ( or navigate the track). So to boil it down to one side's view as simplistic and the other side is not, is not really fair in my view. More on that below.

The momentum of a car and the grip of the tyres prevent the ability to always leave room. At any given instance the options for a driver are limited.

What it comes down to I think, is that we disagree here on the amount of control a driver has over his car and the situation and perhaps what was has been the cause of a collisions or leave not enough space in the past.

My opinion is that a drivers competitive nature is often much less flexible than the cars handling or the options that he has at his disposal. A driver also needs to be in control of his car when there is a wall on the outside and a competitors move requires him to take action to not run into the wall. Same applies if a driver goes to hot into a corner you can't exit it like you have done before. You will have to be less aggressive on the throttle to reduce your racing line radius on exit to compensate for the hot entry. Similarly, if you are on a trajectory that is not going to leave your competitor enough room you have to be less aggressive on your exit in order to leave room. In my opinion it is the competitive nature of the driver rather than limited options of the momentum and handling of his car, that often prevents a driver from doing so. If you like multiple corner battles rather than one corner affairs then more strict rules are needed to emphasize leaving room to compensate for this competitive nature.

I would even argue that your point actually enforces the leaving more racing room argument. If a driver has so little options to control his car in dynamic situations as you say, one could argue that it would be smart to make the rules such that sufficient margin is left on the table. This margin could be provided by stating rules that put more emphasis on leaving racing room rather than rules that reinforce and actually putt in writing the claiming the corner practise which as said encourages rushing to the apex, crashes and discourages leaving room.

If you don't, then the claimed limited driver control in combination with the claim the corner practise would be a recipe for continuos crashes.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I admire and respect Hamilton but a large part of me wishes he had quit after last year. There are exciting young drivers in the sport and I’d like to see them given a chance.

But he's only been racing for a couple of years, right?

Right?

Oh.

[S griffin]

Certainly I think Hamilton has tougher competition now, so getting the title back will be tough. I can see him calling quits at the end of next year or possibly even before

[PhilipR]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

What did you all think about the Sainz-Hamilton incident?


https://youtu.be/owJJheJzoDI?t=17



At 22s into the video Sainz does seem to let his car go wide a bit for an instant, which seemed to let Hamilton few other options. His steering was always to the left before he hit the sausage kerb.


Earlier is proposed this rule:
During a fight for position a driver may maintain or gain position by going off track if not left at least a car width on the outside on track by the competing driver.

For my taste, the way Sainz left room mid corner (or perhaps more like suggesting he was not going to) I would have preferred if they would've let Hamilton keep his position, but it was a tight call.

The issue with asphalt run offs - had there been gravel or a wall - Sainz might have been found at fault for squeezing Hamilton out with a dive bomb(ala Austria 2021) but since there is run-off and usually no damage will come of runnig wide or cutting corner - they are allowed to push someone wide. Comes down to inconsistency of what means to be outside the track

Also who had the idea of that sausage curb at that corner? If one gets pushed wide by another driver, you risk big damage to your car with little fault to you

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Certainly I think Hamilton has tougher competition now, so getting the title back will be tough. I can see him calling quits at the end of next year or possibly even before

He's got at least 9 more years yet before he can retire. He needs to win the title in 2031 to beat Fangio's record.

He might even stick it out until 2041 to beat Fagioli's record.