[DTM] The final breath!?

[mattt]

maybe a S3000R

as a combination between S2000 and DTM

So it has some aero but not extortionate amounts like now, and they have the power etc

I said S3000 as a name for Martin Haven concept - as i didn't know it was already in use

[Speed-King]

S3000 isn't the official name for the Super-Stars ruleset, but it's kinda close to what it would probably look like.

And S3000R would probably resemble the Aussie V8-cars with smaller engines, wouldn't it?

[Martin Haven]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

http://www.eurosuperstars.com/
Doesn't really work, either.

Any money from manufacturers??

thought not...

everyone has big executive cars to sell... thay all have big V8s, with plenty of power and noise possible... spectacular like Gp 5 cars but saner than DTM and Super-touring in terms of cost, as things like rev-limiters and perhaps standard drive-train parts... no carbon shells, based on production bodies

like Aussie V8s but for European (and Japanese) manufacturers...

And if the WTCC went that way (we can only hope!) cars would appear... in National series too, I suspect

[Martin Haven]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

S3000 isn't the official name for the Super-Stars ruleset, but it's kinda close to what it would probably look like.

And S3000R would probably resemble the Aussie V8-cars with smaller engines, wouldn't it?

Yeah... sadly not many Euro-boxes (even luxury ones) have 5-litre V8s

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Martin Haven

Any money from manufacturers??

thought not...

I think there has been or maybe still is an Audi Sport Italia and a Jaguar Dealers Team, so that might amount to a certain degree of manufacturer support. Audi factory driver Dindo Capello participated in several races for the Audi squad.

spectacular like Gp 5 cars but saner than DTM and Super-touring in terms of cost, as things like rev-limiters and perhaps standard drive-train parts... no carbon shells, based on production bodies

I actually have no problem with tubeframe cars, it seems to work quite well and with reasonable costs in Stockcars Brazil, Top Race V6 Argentina and Grand Am Rolex GT. DTM's problem is the aero not the silhouettes.
I'm with you in your aforementioned "racing as entertainment, not R&D"-approach, but if you think that through, it is easier and probably cheaper to do it with silhuoette cars, instead of keeping the unibody but change everything on the inside. Or maybe a semi-silhoette like in Super GT or Gr.5 would work best. Keep the greenhouse, replace everything else with tubeframes.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

I disagree. Racing should either be prototypes or single seaters, or production-based. The in-between silhouette racers are just silly.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Martin Haven

Yeah... sadly not many Euro-boxes (even luxury ones) have 5-litre V8s

Indeed, really sad we dont have more underperforming 1950ies technology engines in our luxury cars...

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

I disagree. Racing should either be prototypes or single seaters, or production-based. The in-between silhouette racers are just silly.

Add to this, that really world-wide and popular serie is impossible without factory participation, and factory participation is impossible in road cars racing, like WTCC.
So world-wide works proto or local production based privateers
I think, Haug, Theissen and Ulricch choose first

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

I disagree. Racing should either be prototypes or single seaters, or production-based. The in-between silhouette racers are just silly.

We might have to agree to disagree here, but I don't think so.

The casual viewers (and that's the huge majority) don't care about what's underneath the shell of the car. And as tubeframe cars have several advantages (repairability, longevity, free choice of RWD vs FWD, reusability, etc) over production based cars, I see no reason that speaks against silhouette racers.
That is, if you are not a purist or über-gearhead, but hardly anyone is, these days.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

I disagree. Racing should either be prototypes or single seaters, or production-based. The in-between silhouette racers are just silly.

Hear hear, couldn't have said it better.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

The casual viewers (and that's the huge majority) don't care about what's underneath the shell of the car. And as tubeframe cars have several advantages (repairability, longevity, free choice of RWD vs FWD, reusability, etc) over production based cars, I see no reason that speaks against silhouette racers.
That is, if you are not a purist or über-gearhead, but hardly anyone is, these days.

They will when contact is made and half of the bodyshell is coming off, reveiling a car that has nothing to do with a streetcar.

[Bramzel]

[edit] double

[FIRE]

DTM organisers have visited NASCAR last weekend:

«Teams stehen im Vordergrund»
Von Arno Wester
19.10.2008 21:55:59
Am vorletzten Wochenende weilte eine ITR-Delegation beim Lauf zum NASCAR Sprint Cup in Charlotte – und nahm zahlreiche Eindrücke mit.

Für Teamchef und ITR-Vorstand Hans-Jürgen Abt, der wie DMSB-Automobilsportchef Christian Schacht sowie die ITR-Männer Walter Mertes und Philipp Berkessy einen zweitägigen Kurztrip nach North Carolina eingelegt hatte, war es der erste Besuch bei einem NASCAR-Rennen.

«Besonders beeindruckt haben mich der unglaubliche Speed der Fahrzeuge, die Lautstärke und die Begeisterung der Fans im Oval», schwärmt der Kemptener. «Alles wirkt wie ein grosser Campingplatz, und die Stimmung ist super – ähnlich wie beim 24-Stunden-Rennen Nürburgring. Wohnmobile ohne Ende, Grillen, Trinken, Party, und das von Donnerstag bis Sonntag, wobei das Ticket im Schnitt für 200 Dollar ja auch nicht gerade billig ist.»

Andererseits hat Abt durchaus Kritikpunkte ausgemacht: «Ein bisschen mehr Ordnung könnte nicht schaden. Alles scheint sehr chaotisch organisiert. Auf der Strecke passiert gar nichts, es gibt keinerlei Rahmenprogramm, bis es am Abend dann endlich losgeht (Charlotte war ein Nachtrennen, Red.).»

Als grösstes Plus der NASCAR nennt Abt «das wahnsinnige Fernsehangebot. Alles kommt live in voller Länge, und das zur Prime time. So ein Nachtrennen am Samstag hat schon was. Das Feld wird durch die vielen Gelbphasen immer wieder zusammengeführt. Hinzu kommt das hohe Preisgeld von 5,676 Millionen Dollar für Fahrer und Teams. Denn die stehen mit ihren Sponsoren im Vordergrund, nicht wie bei uns die Hersteller. Die DTM ist dafür besser organisiert im Aufbau und dem Fahrerlager und bietet mehr Rennen im Programm».

Translation:

"Teams are at the forefront"
By Arno Wester
19.10.2008 21:55:59
On the penultimate weekend while a delegation to the ITR to run NASCAR Sprint Cup Series in Charlotte - and took with numerous impressions.

For team boss and ITR executive Hans-Juergen Abt, the DMSB-like motor sport boss Christian shaft and the ITR men Walter Mertes and Philipp Berkessy a two trip to North Carolina had brought, it was the first visit to a NASCAR race.

"I was particularly impressed with the incredible speed of the vehicles, the volume and the enthusiasm of the fans in the Oval," enthuses the Kemptener. "Everything looks like a big camping, and the mood is super - similar to the 24-hour Nurburgring race. Campers without end, barbecuing, drinking, partying, and from Thursday to Sunday, while the ticket for an average 200 U.S. dollars is also not exactly cheap. "

Abbot certainly has other criticisms identified: "A little more order could not hurt. Everything seems very chaotically organized. On the track nothing happens, there is no program until it at night then finally start (Charlotte was a night race, Red). "

As NASCAR's biggest plus of the abbot called "the mad television. Everything comes to live in full length, and the prime-time. Such a night race on Saturday has what. The field is through the many phases Yellow repeatedly merged. Added to the high prize money of 5.676 billion U.S. dollars for drivers and teams. Because the stand with their sponsors in the foreground, not like us at the manufacturer. The DTM is better organized under construction and the paddock and offers more races in the program. "

Source: Motorsport Aktuell

In my opinion DTM should copy the NASCAR formula:

• Private teams, each driver racing for his own success, fans AND sponsors.
• Big prize money funded by the manufacturers and event sponsors.
• Cheap but powerful and strong RWD silhouette cars (150k~200k Euro).
• Large grids (+30 cars).
• At least 15 races a season throughout Europe.

Just my 2 cents.

[10tacle]

Cheap but powerful and strong RWD silhouette cars (150k~200k Euro)

195.000 Euro is the price für 1 BMW 320si... i thin there is no Chance du built bigger, better car for less.

[FIRE]

If I remember well a V8Star car was less than 150k Euro.

A 800 bhp NASCAR Cup car is around 150k to 200k Euro.

[stedevil]

Of course a Nascar can be cheap. They just go round round in an oval with banks. Not too demanding in the steering and suspension department.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by 10tacle

195.000 Euro is the price für 1 BMW 320si... i thin there is no Chance du built bigger, better car for less.

What's the price for those Renault Megane Trophy racers?

Size is not really a problem with tube-frame cars and neither is a sufficient level of horse-power if you don't restrict the engines artificially and stay rather unsophisticated..
I think 150k would definitely be doable, esp. if they went - like NASCAR - the spec-chassis-way.

[helgi]

Oh,please,not NASCAR! DTM has enough show-element with that stupid second pit-stop.If they're going to act the race-long show,I'll better watch some Lada Cup events live.
DTM really needs privat independent teams.It's a shame that Zakspeed has some financial problems(as I've heard), would be great to return Manthey too. Maybe,they should invite tuning companies?
But one thing is evidient. DTM shouldn't be a 20 or 30-event sweepstakes. Big money always make big problems.

[kmchow]

Although DTM already has MB/Audi sharing some parts, perhaps they should incr the parts/chassis sharing to Nascar levels. IIRC, the chassis are shared, it's coming to the point where basically, only the badges separates the cars.

Though as a "touring" car fan, I don't want to see them become closer to Nascar.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by kmchow

Although DTM already has MB/Audi sharing some parts, perhaps they should incr the parts/chassis sharing to Nascar levels. IIRC, the chassis are shared, it's coming to the point where basically, only the badges separates the cars.

Though as a "touring" car fan, I don't want to see them become closer to Nascar.

Maybe more like the new Nationwide-COT: Same running gear, different silhouettes.

[helgi]

Why do you want to equalize everything?I can't understand! Americans usually say they want to see pilots battles,not cars. But I thought Europeans are fond of both pilots and cars battles.
If the main reason is money,then there should be a rule of maximum sum of money,team can spend on a car. Maybe,they should return fuel economy formula. Maybe, some standart details. But the design must be different! It's not a mono-class. There're plenty of cups like,Porsche,Ferrari,Megane,Seat etc. Imagine,that there're some people,who want to watch some interesting design in DTM. I'm sure,even limited costs would be able to help engineers to invent something new. For example, BTCS with Jaguar,BMW,Peugeot silhouettes is rather popular in Belgium. ITR should go that way,not American.
Besides, there were some NASCAResque series in Europe.Where're they now?
NASCAR way - dead-end for Europe series.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by helgi

Why do you want to equalize everything?I can't understand! Americans usually say they want to see pilots battles,not cars. But I thought Europeans are fond of both pilots and cars battles.

Battles is the key-word. When it's a walkover or a parade, and strong manufacturer involvement in combination with relatively sophisticated rulesets tends to create either the one or the other, there's no reason to watch it at all.

If the main reason is money,then there should be a rule of maximum sum of money,team can spend on a car. Maybe,they should return fuel economy formula. Maybe, some standart details. But the design must be different!

Spending caps are impossible to controll in manufacturer dominated racing, I think. And a fuel formula would probably not help with cost containment, either.

It's not a mono-class. There're plenty of cups like,Porsche,Ferrari,Megane,Seat etc. Imagine,that there're some people,who want to watch some interesting design in DTM. I'm sure,even limited costs would be able to help engineers to invent something new. For example, BTCS with Jaguar,BMW,Peugeot silhouettes is rather popular in Belgium. ITR should go that way,not American.

The majority of the BTCS-field -with the exception of the BMWs I think - is made up of old -sometimes re-bodied -cars from Renault Megane or French Supertourismo, so that's not really a viable formula for DTM, is it?

Besides, there were some NASCAResque series in Europe.Where're they now?
NASCAR way - dead-end for Europe series.

I don't know about the others, but when I say that I want a NASCAR-model for DTM I don't mean bloated 3400lbs cars with 1950s-carburetor engines, but that I want a common chassis with different silhouettes and engines that is a proper roadracing chassis. So the similarities with NASCAR are only in the philosophy, not in the execution.

For example something like this:
http://stockcar.globo.com/ or
http://www.trv6.com.ar/

But without the spec-engines.

The huge advantage of a ruleset like that would be that smaller teams like Schubert, Kissling or Irmscher could go to Dallara or Lola or Zytek or whoever and order a competitive chassis for an affordable price, then go to an engine-builder and get a proper engine and finally put a silhouette over it and go racing with an BMW 3-series car or an Insignia. They could use the same chassis for 5 years* and re-body it if the car model changes or gets a facelift. It would be a huge help for privateers and for variety and that's what DTM needs.

*if it's a spec-chassis anyway, there's no problem in "freezing" it for a long period of time.

[FIRE]

I said DTM should take NASCAR as an example but that does NOT mean they should use stock cars (but I recommend to watch a NASCAR race on a road course because it's great racing) or race on ovals. DTM, WTCC but also F1 could learn a lot from NASCAR (or US racing in general).

[helgi]

Well,I'll agree with some ideas. Would be great if some well-known (not one,because monopoly has never got quality) chassis specialists provide 'body',and manufacturers provide only engines with silhouettes. So,manufacturers won't be able to rule a set of teams and divide the field into two or three 'football teams'.
But technical side of racing should be open for spectators - ITR should look at ACO and its LMS. I think lots of fans there are interested not only in racing,but engineering and design to.And in case we knew more about DTM technic,not only 5-minutes of 'boxenstop' with Manuel Reuter at ARD, an interest would be higher.
As for American racing I think they are talented in making huge money out of everything. That's the fact and I don't argue about it. But do we want to have another piece of show? That's the question.

[Valenok]

NASCAR is great serie, why do you afraid it? NASCARlike road-course racing serie is called V8 Supercars. It is great serie. DTM can learn something from Australians. More rounds, more racing. Look at old DTM/ITC - you find 13 rounds with 2 races each. V8 has two manufacturers, but no political games - thing, that DTM need most of all. So, in fact, DTM don't need NASCAR, it need just a good organisation, good work for Aufrecht, Haug, Ullrich and other bosses. Another case any decision make things worst.
I've written my point of view to DTM technical reglament earlier, and I think it is still actual.
Commercialization in NASCAR is thing that terryfied me most of all. I was shocked by fan who asked Junior before Daytona about jouce, he'd advertised few months before. It is unacceptable for me.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helgi

Would be great if some well-known (not one,because monopoly has never got quality) chassis specialists provide 'body'

I think A1GP proves that statement wrong. 1 manufacturer also brings down the cost (less development needed, both initially and later, since no improvements are needed to keep competitive).