[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[S griffin]

Well it’s right the family still support it, it’s Frank’s child. But how long Williams will go in different hands is a different matter. It’ll still be Williams, but it’s got an uncertain future

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Add to which at the level that Williams are, F1 is increasingly a year at a time results based business. If you don't get the results it affects your FOM cash, in the case of 2018 you lose two paying 'customers' because the product you have delivered is not good enough, which in turns affects your appeal to other 'paying customers' and sponsors and impacts on your budget to build the next product.



All of the above affects the value of the business and impact on shareholders, etc



Three bad years could in a row can have a severe impact.

If Williams were to have a third bad year in a row, would that be the end or is there a potential buyer?

[Peter Mallett]

I really can't see anyone wanting to buy into the current situation. Where is the incentive when you can't build your own engines due to complexity and/or cost, just for starters?

I feel that the management is trying to get into the franchise type of entry but to sell that you need to ensure that everyone can be competitive on a similar budget. Never gonna happen with this lot.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I really can't see anyone wanting to buy into the current situation. Where is the incentive when you can't build your own engines due to complexity and/or cost, just for starters?

I feel that the management is trying to get into the franchise type of entry but to sell that you need to ensure that everyone can be competitive on a similar budget. Never gonna happen with this lot.

Potentially then, if they have another bad season that could be end of Williams, which would reduce the field to 9 teams.

[chillibowl]

i dont disagree that the family may be the root issue here and that pulling back to less day to day/board only level could be a good thing for the team going forward.

but i have to say i i think one of the reasons i have shown support for Williams over their decade plus decline is precisely because of the family....you take 'family' out of the equation (or give them less viability) and there is a potential of losing the very thing that makes Williams unique and special.

of course having the 'right people' in place doesnt have to come at the expense of getting rid of the family but it probably will.

for me, and as Graz humorously touched on, i think i would be far more interested and more supportive of a poorly run family team then i would be of an investor/corporate entity that is just in F1 because they couldn't find a football team to buy.

Originally Posted by Graz

Probably a bit late now though. Williams F1 will end up being sold off before it crumbles into the dust. Some rich Middle Eastern investors when there are no more football teams worth buying.

and now at this point i pivot the conversation back to F1 in general and say that Williams long term problem isnt organizational or even philosophical but rather its that they compete in sport that is set up to only reward financially wealthy corporations.

even if Williams built the best car they possibly could at their funding level they would still, all things being equal, be finishing races 1 lap down to the top teams.

[S griffin]

The family I feel will always have a say in the team, it’s still their team. Without them it wouldn’t be Williams. It’s a shame the team is in decline, after all their success, especially after all the promise they showed in the mid 10s. They will always have a special place in F1. This may run and run though. I think it’ll be interesting to see how much they achieve this season

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think it’ll be interesting to see how much they achieve this season

If they're anything other than flat last there will be a lot of hat eating going on.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i dont disagree that the family may be the root issue here and that pulling back to less day to day/board only level could be a good thing for the team going forward.

but i have to say i i think one of the reasons i have shown support for Williams over their decade plus decline is precisely because of the family....you take 'family' out of the equation (or give them less viability) and there is a potential of losing the very thing that makes Williams unique and special.

of course having the 'right people' in place doesnt have to come at the expense of getting rid of the family but it probably will.

for me, and as Graz humorously touched on, i think i would be far more interested and more supportive of a poorly run family team then i would be of an investor/corporate entity that is just in F1 because they couldn't find a football team to buy.



and now at this point i pivot the conversation back to F1 in general and say that Williams long term problem isnt organizational or even philosophical but rather its that they compete in sport that is set up to only reward financially wealthy corporations.

even if Williams built the best car they possibly could at their funding level they would still, all things being equal, be finishing races 1 lap down to the top teams.

There is a story that when John Barnard (he of McLaren and latterly Ferrari) was engaged by Tom Walkinshaw of Arrows to design their car, on seeing the first proposals for the car, TW was alleged to have remarked that it was great but he couldn't afford to build it and even if he could, he couldn't afford to run it..!


Thereby goes an illustration of how big team thinking and largesse can't always be replicated in a small team.

[P38 in workshop]

I hope by now enough components to allow two cars with rule compliant parts to race have made their way to Australia.The big question is how Williams can move on and hopefully make some progress.I wonder if the problem has it's origins on the high quality of the engineering in the Patrick Head era;in that he had such oversight of the technical aspects of the car that Frank could get on with the rest of the business knowing that the engineering would be sound and of a competitive standard.


Since he retired they have had Sam Michael,Mike Coughlan,Pat Symonds and Paddy Lowe all failing to lead a return to the glory days.All the names I listed (and I might have missed one or two) are competent and were left to get on with things.Somewhere between this level and the people on the shop floor there must be something going wrong.Should we blame the Williams family for employing a succession of good people or should they have had a -for want of a better description-Senior Technical Consultant?Its a bit like having a dog and having to bark yourself.Is there a culture that is no longer adaptive and focused on racing?Something needs to change or this season will simply be more of the same we have seen for the last few seasons.

[S griffin]

I think they will do a decent job. The days of Patrick are gone. Same with Frank. The problem is they seem to have no continuity anymore, which is a shame

[Graz]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

If they're anything other than flat last there will be a lot of hat eating going on.

As Murray Walker once said "I'll eat the hat I do not have." I think we'll be alright somehow.

[Dutton]

I think their plan is to stay afloat until 2021 and pray the financial and budget mechanisms of the sport change in the way they want.

They are pretty well pooched as things stand.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I think their plan is to stay afloat until 2021 and pray the financial and budget mechanisms of the sport change in the way they want.

They are pretty well pooched as things stand.

Not a great strategy given they'll already be well behind the curve by then, even if the regs end up being what they want. And if they don't, well RIP Williams GP Engineering.

If this is their strategy then if anyone had doubts about Williams management, this should just confirm it.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I think their plan is to stay afloat until 2021 and pray the financial and budget mechanisms of the sport change in the way they want.

They are pretty well pooched as things stand.

Oh I don't think so.

They can just recruit a competent designer and lead a nice charge towards the midfield! How hard can it be?

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Oh I don't think so.

They can just recruit a competent designer and lead a nice charge towards the midfield! How hard can it be?

Problem is the midfield is a hell of a lot better than it was, arguably they are leaner and more efficient than Williams are today.


On paper there is no way that either Haas or Racing Point should be anywhere near Williams, which is a combination of how far they have come and how far Williams have fallen. Shame.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

They can just recruit a competent designer and lead a nice charge towards the midfield! How hard can it be?

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Problem is the midfield is a hell of a lot better than it was, arguably they are leaner and more efficient than Williams are today.

I take V8's comment as an intentional joke. It could be taken as a serious comment if the "lead a nice charge towards the midfield" describes them making improvements in moving "towards" the midfield, but not actually playing "in" the midfield.

I think the only way Williams can play in the midfield is if they somehow manage to "get their s*** together" as a team. This has proven to be a tall order for them so far.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I think their plan is to stay afloat until 2021 and pray the financial and budget mechanisms of the sport change in the way they want.

agreed. stay afloat and see what concessions they can draw out from the new Concorde agreement...feel like this has been their play for the last couple of rounds (take advantage of BE's divide and conquer art of negotiating) and in fairness its a play which has worked well for them in the past.

but no more BE and Liberty arent keen on historical payments (frankly, Williams may no longer even be deserving of special payments) so this play may no longer work.

they may be on their last legs but another way to look at this is as a opportunity and one massive final payday for the Williams family.

a more financially responsible engine formula could attract new manus and with that a legitimate offer for a full factory takeover!

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by Graz

Not a great strategy given they'll already be well behind the curve by then, even if the regs end up being what they want. And if they don't, well RIP Williams GP Engineering.

If this is their strategy then if anyone had doubts about Williams management, this should just confirm it.

It ain't visionary for sure but I just do not see the signs of anything else.

Honestly I think they are beyond the point of no return no matter what they do. I would love them to prove me utterly and completely incorrect.

[P38 in workshop]

Looking at the times from day 1 in Melbourne its at least as bad as last year.Might be best to get as much running in as possible every day to gain lots of data.Then hope that there is enough collective brain power to deduce where the biggest deficits are coming from.At which point some faster parts need to be made,in the shortest possible time,so that the performance is there at the earliest opportunity.No need for too many production planning meetings because if there isn't a big improvement soon there won't be too much of a future to plan for.

[Moneyseeker]

That was pretty poor from Williams, they are even 2.5 secs on the core midfield pack and virtually 2 secs off the p17/18. RK is saying they can't attack the kerbs as they don't have enough parts and are even having to repair parts to put back on the car. The car looks way off PL's prediction of a better baseline than the 2018 car.


Good piece from DR much of which mirrors comments we have in our thread.


https://www.racefans.net/2019/03/13/...liams-decline/

[peebee2]

Looks much worse than we thought, and we thought it bad already...

[billy bleach]

Is the Williams actually slower than a Formula 2 car?....

[Armco Bender]

Good news for Williams....they should only be lapped 4 times before the end of the race...

[P38 in workshop]

According to Russell's comments they have identified a fairly fundamental problem.Thats a positive thing,the problem is going to take a couple of months to fix.They really need to do everything possible to reduce that time span,there are too many points escaping with each race they appear at with a flawed car and they desperately need to grab a point or two during the season.

[peebee2]

Sounds great, but is actually almost the same as last year.