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13 Sep 2021, 22:33 (Ref:4073723) | #201 | ||
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The 40yrs ago argument is an interesting one, it takes us to 1981 which a certain G Villeneuve was still driving.
Someone referred to at the time (and since) as a somewhat reckless but super quick driver. |
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Part time wingman, full time spud. |
13 Sep 2021, 23:37 (Ref:4073732) | #202 | ||
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To race you need to be able to trust the other driver, and the rules need to set out the parameters of combat for the untrustworthy. Sweeping everything under the carpet as a racing incident results in what we saw here. Both at fault, and racing suffered. |
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14 Sep 2021, 01:09 (Ref:4073740) | #203 | ||
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But they aren’t sweeping everything under the carpet as a racing incident! Pretty much everything gets a penalty now! Certainly much more than previously. They are doing what you want!
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Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously. |
14 Sep 2021, 01:30 (Ref:4073743) | #204 | |
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There are basic principles in all stewarding of driving behavior and good stewards have them pretty much all in a line. In this instance Ocon got penalized for not leaving racing room. I would say yes that is true. Racing room in that situation is to be able to continue on your trajectory without being forced to leave the racing surface. And he was forced to leave the racing surface. Ocon didn't really know how close he was. His mistake. That is situation is common in all motorsports because its a blind spot. You assume in Vettel's spot have been seen but the person in front thinks your gone, they're further ahead. Like with Max and HAM at Silverstone. HAM was significantly alongside but started to let it go and slipped back a bit when Max turned in across the line that Ham would have taken had he remained alongside. Just look at the aerial view. Max definitely turned in to what Ham would have occupied if he had remained in there. Max obviously assumed he was gone or not there, but he was. IN karting this happens a lot. Situational unawareness, especially with kids. Max learnt to race in karts and still retains a lot of his elbows out "I'll stuff it in there and my skills will sort it out" style o aggressive driving but its really a form of intimidation. At Silverstone earlier in the first lap before Copse Max and Ham were side by side coming up to a left hander. Max is on the inside and starts to move to the right. HAM gives him room then Max turns left into the turn but not before his right rear makes contact with Hams left front. The same two wheels that touched in Copse. Was the wheel/suspension damaged or weakened before Copse? I don't know. But if so it explained why the assembly came away so easily and Max lost control at 150mph. If it was there is no question in my mind that the Max V driving style was the author of his own misfortune , not HAM. Last edited by Teretonga; 14 Sep 2021 at 01:36. |
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14 Sep 2021, 06:43 (Ref:4073771) | #205 | |||
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The problem is you have a driver on the inside who feels the corner is theirs and they want to claim it, so they push the outer driver wide. The guy on the inside thinks that the outer driver will bail to the grass / tarmac, but obviously this puts them at a disadvantage due to getting dirty tyres/punctures, so naturally the driver on the outside will resist this, however its almost seen now as an automatic "out" and if the driver on the outside DOESNT move over, they will have a wheel banging session and likely a crash. |
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14 Sep 2021, 07:36 (Ref:4073772) | #206 | |
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The difference is a lot of Gilles' contemporaries said he was always fair when going wheel to wheel and would never intentionally push someone else off
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He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
14 Sep 2021, 08:48 (Ref:4073777) | #207 | ||
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Sometimes enthusiasts feel that it is being ignored or not enough is being done but you have to remember that this is a sport. A competition. A competitive game, although a very expensive one. The cars have a lot to do with it. Incredibly strong, complex, heavy, powerful, aerodynamically very sensitive. Its much harder to pass now. More than it has ever been. Yet so much safer that the likelihood of getting seriously injured is more remote than ever. Although if ham Had been injured in his spine at Monza how different would the response been if the race had to be red flagged while he was removed from his car and flown to hospital? Because its a competition everything is up for grabs. There's a lot at stake. Fortune favor's the brave.... Remember that. That is why if someone bullies someone and pulls it off to their advantage they appear to get away with it. We love dramatic and brave, awesome , amazing moves and overtakes. I've said this before but I'll repeat it. In motorsport its a bit like this; He who dares, if he brings it off, wins. He who dares, but doesn't bring it off, takes himself out and loses. He who dares, and takes someone else out, gets penalized. |
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14 Sep 2021, 09:04 (Ref:4073779) | #208 | ||
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So, this is currently happening over on Twitter. Alan van der Merwe is getting hounded by "F1 fans" over the medical car not being deployed to Lewis Hamilton... Just look at the replies FFS. https://twitter.com/alanvdm/status/1...451153410?s=20
Honestly i cant even deal with these new "social media fans" it never used to be like this. |
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14 Sep 2021, 09:19 (Ref:4073781) | #209 | |||
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Part time wingman, full time spud. |
14 Sep 2021, 09:21 (Ref:4073782) | #210 | ||
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14 Sep 2021, 09:38 (Ref:4073783) | #211 | ||
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I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks, through forests and up hills. |
14 Sep 2021, 10:43 (Ref:4073788) | #212 | |
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You’re all overthinking it;
With their slow pit stops it was virtually inevitable that Ricciardo would win the race. Neither of them wanted to do a Shoey, so took each other out to even the score and leave the juice of the foot to someone else. That’s what team mates are for. |
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14 Sep 2021, 11:56 (Ref:4073801) | #213 | ||
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Yes, Norris gets a minimal penalty while the other guys race is over. In Zandvoort he does the same again so it does not seem he has learned much from the penalty. Verstappen-Leclerc Austria Verstappen-Hamilton Barcelona Verstappen-Hamilton Monza lap 1 T4 Hamilton-Verstappen crash So let's say for arguments sake Hamilton would have left Verstappen enough room from T1 tot T2. He would've have had to take a tighter arc (like lap 1) and so would've lost some ground because of that. Instead of Verstappen being slightly behind into T2 he probably would've been about equal or slightly ahead. But now comes T2. Now Verstappen needs to take a much tighter arch to leave Hamilton enough room on the exit of T2. Two things could then have happened: 1 He fails to do so, in my book that is a penalty for Verstappen 2 Or he does leave Hamilton enough room on the outside, Hamilton can take more speed onto curva granda and we could've seen the fight continue into the second chicane. Glorious stuff potentially. unfortunately like so many times lately many drivers are not willing to go through a corner side by side and it's over within one corner. The current rules unfortunately don't help to change that. Last edited by Taxi645; 14 Sep 2021 at 12:03. |
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Constructive discussion: A conversion where participants are maximally open to yet critical of each others (and their own) arguments, with the intend of enhancing the knowledge, understanding and/or handling of it's subject. |
14 Sep 2021, 13:38 (Ref:4073834) | #214 | |||
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You cant have a sensible conversation on their anymore. its full of 'bots' or trolls, whipping up polarising statments. it was the same after Silverstone when people wanted to burn lewis at the stake... ..and to be fair its not just confined to those 2 drivers, it was the same with Vettel a couple of years back, anti russell brigade...twitter is just a cesspit....only 1 step worse than pistonheads. At least here, you can have a decent conversation for the majority of time |
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14 Sep 2021, 13:43 (Ref:4073838) | #215 | ||
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Not sure about damage limitation bit!
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14 Sep 2021, 15:16 (Ref:4073864) | #216 | ||
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Yes, at least the rules on here are more stricter on social media platforms, so we can at least be civil more often. Twitter and the like can seem like a free for all and that leads to some very disturbing comments |
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He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
14 Sep 2021, 15:57 (Ref:4073888) | #217 | ||
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Tarmac run off is partly to blame. Drivers are now expected to run wide as a normality if two cars are side by side, what then happens once a car is on the tarmac / grass / bumps is anyones guess.
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14 Sep 2021, 16:00 (Ref:4073890) | #218 | |
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For a moment there I was trying to work out how tarmac run-off had made Twitter a cesspool
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Walk a mile in someone else's shoes. When they realise you have, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes. |
14 Sep 2021, 19:08 (Ref:4073916) | #219 | ||
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What can you say about the part of the stewards' decision where they say Hamilton took an "evasive line" that still pushed Verstappen into the kerb, all in one and the same sentence? Also, many would say that chicane can accommodate two cars. Or at least that Hamilton could have left some more room and still taken the chicane with that speed. Not that he was obliged to, but could have. Also they mentioned something about Hamilton being ahead at the 50m board for Turn 1 - that's awfully close to the pit exit, out of which Hamilton was accelerating. Another thing I noted is that Hamilton had already done his allowed 1 blocking move right before Turn 1, where Verstappen was pushed out of the track, but he kept going because of the astroturf. When I watched him at Turn 2 to me it seemed he deserved some room because he had managed to keep a significant portion of his car alongside, despite getting blocked at Turn 1. |
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14 Sep 2021, 20:21 (Ref:4073942) | #220 | ||
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'Hey, come on through Max, I don't need another WDC really.....'
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44 days... |
14 Sep 2021, 22:46 (Ref:4073951) | #221 | ||
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Quote:
With the same logic we can't blame Verstappen for going for it. That was his chance. He was having a promising race until the dreadful pitstop. Then Hamilton had a less than optimal pitstop and that brought them together at Turn 1. That's also probably the best place to pull an overtaking move at Monza (unlike Turn 4). And with the Mercedes being faster on that track, it was Verstappen's only chance to try and pass (or stay ahead after Hamilton pitting). All this talk of a "tactical foul" is just absurd, he didn't go into the turn with the intention to crash, nor was there a way to plan how to crash so both cars are out (not to mention one on top of the other). For those who are not aware, a "tactical foul" is when in football/soccer a player fouls an opponent on purpose with the intention of preventing a potential scoring opportunity which will be hard or impossible to stop without breaking the rules of the game. It happens a lot during the initiation of counter attacks. This was just two drivers who were pushing very hard and who were very unyielding to each other. It was actually damn good racing and I would love to see it more often, if it were not for those dumb sausages lining the track. I watched it live on Sky, and there, as well as in the analysis everyone seemed to think it was a racing incident. The great analyses on the-race also wrote the same. The official F1 analysis from yesterday also calls it a racing incident (though they say Max was just slightly behind to make it 100% clear cut). But now we have people calling for a race suspension?? It's obvious some are convinced Verstappen crashed on purpose, and that is sad, not just practically impossible to plan it all out like that. I'm haring Max's favorite stewards was one of the deciders At least the penalty will not be that significant, as RB have to replace an engine and they were considering Sochi anyway. Though now their hand is probably forced. But to me, with the outcome being the same for both drivers after their clash, the penalty may give a psychological advantage to Hamilton. |
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15 Sep 2021, 00:58 (Ref:4073972) | #222 | ||
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and another for getting rid of sausage curbs. Peroni's accident Monza 2019. https://www.motor1.com/news/369457/f...rash-breaking/ Damn things have potentially caused 2 fatal accidents, Peroni's was more luck than good management, and Lewis was saved by the halo. Time to take the hint. |
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15 Sep 2021, 01:51 (Ref:4073979) | #223 | ||
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Your assumption that the penalties are not harsh enough is incorrect. There is an accumulative effective and I can assure you the drivers do feel it. They are far more sensitive to it than you realize. The second is the notion that you can effectively pass in Rettifilo and that T2 is possible for two cars to RACE around side b side without someone being pushed off or disadvantaged. Its NOT. Not under racing conditions. Most chicanes of that nature are not places to pass unless there is a huge disparity in speed, grip and road holding. Under brakes beforehand. Yes. But not IN the chicane. FIA Kart circuits are 8m wide minimum and drivers use all the road, or as much as possible if they can, and karts are a fraction of the size of a F1 car. If you had a kart circuit with the chicane the physical side and width of of Rettifilo most of your kart drivers would still go through it in single file.... |
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15 Sep 2021, 02:02 (Ref:4073980) | #224 | ||
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Max made deliberate decisions that led to that situation. |
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15 Sep 2021, 03:39 (Ref:4073989) | #225 | |
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Having watched it again, I feel this is mostly Verstappen's fault, but by a whisker (and I suppose a little more than a racing incident, but not an absolute stinker by Max). Hamilton absolutely squeezed him and dictated that he had the corner for the second part of the chicane. You can question whether Hamilton should be able to squeeze him so much there.
Assuming Max could still back out, the critical decision was made as soon as he started to turn right. Instead of waiting (or cutting the chicane), he also started to take the right-hander, but due to the finnicky nature of this chicane soon found himself bundled over the kerbs and into Hamilton. The Senna-Prost Suzuka '89 comparisons are quite relevant, not just for the intense title battle, but for the unwillingness of both to back down. I would question why Monza needs such tight chicanes. It is difficult enough for the drivers to establish what constitutes fair racing, 'my corner', 'my line' and so on, without the need for an even tighter set of space. |
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