Two door coupes.

[I Rosputnik]

One thing I've never got about touring cars is the number of doors a car should have. If a car has two doors, four seats and is classfied as a coupe, but is shaped like a saloon and goes exactly the same speed as the four door version is it suitable for touring cars or does it become a Grand Tourer? There is a common view that a touring car should have four doors, but in the past there has been two door touring cars. (BMW M3, Ford Capri, Hyundai Genesis, Chevrolet Camaro) However on the other side, sportscar fans have been calling the BMW M3 Coupe LMGT (Which has a saloon shape) a touring car.

For a while now I've wanted to get a few opinions in reguards to this.

Here's an example to the sort of car I am talking about.

And here's a two door touring car.

[Speed-King]

I'm all for Coupes in Touring Car racing - just think about what great cars we would have missed if they weren't allowed.

That said, I'd go even further and allow any coupes, even if they aren't related all that closely to sedans as long as they have 2+2 seats and meet a certain price-cap, that makes sure that no one can come in with a Vette or a Porsche...

I'd love to see some Camaros and Mustangs - dare I say Challengers!? - dicing it out with the European manufacturers in the Superstars Series.

[KA]

No problem at all with coupes. I've never been able to get hung up on the issue of how many doors a touring car should have, or whether it should be a saloon or a hatch.
To some extent I think it's down to a historical perspective that influences what you think a touring car is.

I guess for a lot of current touring car fans, they cut their teeth on Supertouring in the 90's, so basically 4-door saloons (and the odd 5-door hatch or Volvo estate...) only.
For an older generation though, who watched the BTCC in the 70's/80's, then we grew up with Capris, Alfa GTVs, BMW 635s and the like, so coupes in touring car racing are nothing new.

I think your choice of the E30 M3 to illustrate the point is ideal- at one time a lot of manufacturers built both 2 and 4 door versions of their popular saloons, and at one time if you were going to race one, you usually picked the 2-door if you had the choice because less door openings=a more rigid bodyshell, especially back in the days when rollcages were much less complex than they are now.

Back then, there were probably far more 2-door touring cars than 4-door- off the top of my head, until the 2-litre regs came in (and even they allowed Coupes for the first couple of years) I'm struggling to think of many 4-door saloons used in touring car racing when a 2-door version of the same model was available. You never saw a 5-door RS500, M3, Escort or Lotus Cortina....



OK, 911s and Maxda RX7s (both of which got into the BTCC at one time) were stretching the point too far, but apart from that, I don't mind whether it's a 2/4 door saloon, hatch or coupe.

[Valenok]

I agree with Superstars policy - every 4-seat car is touring.

[medius]

To me, it depends if theres a 4dr version. I would have rather seen Peugeot use the 406 saloon and Vauxhall the Astra 2 or 4 door hatch in BTCC 2001, rather than the 406 Coupe and Astra Coupe. Things like the Integra, Volvo C30 etc were fine with me, there wasn't a direct 4dr version available.

But to back up KA's point, I started following BTCC in 1992, the crossover point when 2L Super Touring started (VLR BMW E36 Coupes vs the Dave Cook Cavaliers).

[Matt]

Originally Posted by KA

I think your choice of the E30 M3 to illustrate the point is ideal- at one time a lot of manufacturers built both 2 and 4 door versions of their popular saloons, and at one time if you were going to race one, you usually picked the 2-door if you had the choice because less door openings=a more rigid bodyshell, especially back in the days when rollcages were much less complex than they are now.

Not true. a 4 door shell is more rigid than a 2 door shell.

[NaBUru38]

Coupés like the 370Z, Camaro, Mustang and RX-8, they are for sports car racing. They can do sprint races (see GT4, SCCA WC), just like touring cars usually do. But to me, touring cars are for best-selling models, which are sedans and hatchbacks.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by I Rosputnik

Here's an example to the sort of car I am talking about.

Are there really people who like the design of this car?

[I Rosputnik]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Are there really people who like the design of this car?

I like the rear lights of the car, but the facelifted MK2 Euro Focus is better.

However, the US Focus coupe was the best example I could think of at the time.

[Bramzel]

Yes, as long as the overall grid is a healthy mix of Saloons, Coupe's and Hatchbacks.

[Woolley]

I'm of the opinion that if the car can carry two adults and two teenage children plus luggage in comfort, it's a Touring Car. If you have to exclude the children it's a GT, and if you have to leave the luggage behind as well it's a Sports Car. All you need to do is define the sizes of children and luggage.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I'm of the opinion that if the car can carry two adults and two teenage children plus luggage in comfort, it's a Touring Car. If you have to exclude the children it's a GT, and if you have to leave the luggage behind as well it's a Sports Car. All you need to do is define the sizes of children and luggage.

Wow, that's both funny and very true

[duke_toaster]

I would go for an odd way of deciding, bearing in mind Woolley's definition - if it's a two door coupe and it's front wheel drive, it's probably a touring car, if it's two door and rear wheel drive it's probably a GT car.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

if it's a two door coupe and it's front wheel drive...

It's probably a dull saloon in a tarty bodykit and shouldn't be on the road, never mind a race circuit! Let's face it, it's not going to be competitive whatever you class it as. Destined for one-make series, I suspect.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Woolley

It's probably a dull saloon in a tarty bodykit and shouldn't be on the road, never mind a race circuit! Let's face it, it's not going to be competitive whatever you class it as. Destined for one-make series, I suspect.

Not quite - the Opel Calibra and the Honda Integra were rather successfull race cars, and not just in DTM or BTCC, but also in Group-N-racing such as the 1990s Tourenwagen-Challenge here in Germany.

[Woolley]

LOL, you can allow me a little personal prejudice if I'm drawing up the rules, surely? Calibra I count as a Cavalier in tarty bodywork so I'm claiming that one! Integra I have to conced you may have a point unless I can prove it's really an Accord or similar...

DTM is arguably not a TC series as relates to this discussion. To my mind the cars are to all intents Sports Prototypes based on the silhouette of a road car. Don't get me wrong, it's a class of racing that I think should exist, but I wish it wasn't defined as a Touring Car series. Coupe prototypes as an international category fitting between TC and GTs and running to the current sprint format is quite a mouth-watering prospect.

[Speed-King]

DTM is arguably not a TC series as relates to this discussion.

That's why I mentioned the Group-N series

Coupe prototypes as an international category fitting between TC and GTs and running to the current sprint format is quite a mouth-watering prospect.

Absolutely.

[I Rosputnik]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Coupe prototypes as an international category fitting between TC and GTs and running to the current sprint format is quite a mouth-watering prospect.

I like to think we have something like that with GT1. Not exactly, but something like it.

[FIRE]

Any photos of the Group N Opel Calibra?

[Speed-King]

Yup - Stefan Kissling was quite successfull with those and came close to winning the DTC-title at least once.

Anyway, here are the pics:

http://www.1998.motorracetime.de/topten/dtc/top2.jpg

http://www.1998.motorracetime.de/topten/dtc/top3.jpg

http://www.1998.motorracetime.de/topten/dtc/Osch138.jpg

http://www.1999.motorracetime.de/top.../Tophock60.jpg

http://www.1999.motorracetime.de/top...p10Nuer152.jpg

http://www.1999.motorracetime.de/top...op10Zol218.jpg

Man, I miss DTC...

Quality of the pics sucks, though, they've been on the web since the 56k-era...

[FIRE]

Thanks. Cannot remember I have seen this car before.

I always liked the Calibra road car. Lately I saw one again but no longer longer understand why I liked it. It looks heavy and underpowered.

[I Rosputnik]

I'm bringing this topic up again, I've been thinking about things again. I've started seeing more Volkswagen Scirocco's, Renault Megane Coupe's and Honda CRZ's being driven around. What I find interesting about these cars is their shapes. They're like a strange and wonderful mix of hatchback and coupe, with the size of a small saloon. They don't give off that van feel that I get from the Seat Leon. Not just that but they have low down, wide, brutish stance that you can get from a saloon. We could see more of these sort of cars come up in the future with a 3-door Focus ST.

They're coupes, yes, but they feel more closer to touring cars then sportscars cars. With most of these cars with racing as a side idea, you could build a simple set of regulations that would work to the strengths of these hatchback/coupe hybrids. If the WTCC or any touring car championship was to switch to these sort of cars, would it work?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I'm of the opinion that if the car can carry two adults and two teenage children plus luggage in comfort, it's a Touring Car. If you have to exclude the children it's a GT, and if you have to leave the luggage behind as well it's a Sports Car. All you need to do is define the sizes of children and luggage.

What we have now in most "touring car" series is quite obviously, SALOONS. They generally have the ability to seat 4 people & most have 4 doors. Therefore SALOONS. It should therefore be the British/ World/ Swedish etc Saloon Car Championship. Coupes are just "fast back" versions of Saloons.

In my view there is no such thing as a touring car, as such. Its just a name that is a shortened version of Grand Tourer & my definition of that is a car that can accommodate 2 adults, 2 sets of golf clubs & 2 weekend bags & go from London to Scotland comfortably (OK, stops for petrol!)

Sports cars should be lighter & smaller & perhaps only accommodate 2 people & their weekend bags.

& then there is the relatively modern term of Super car - impractical & very fast - for 2 people & a wash bag/ change of underwear.

So, now we can have the Britsh/ World/ Swedish etc...

Saloon Car Championship (BTCC etc as was)
GT Championship (Aston Martin Vantage, Jag XKR, Ferrari 612, Mazda RX8 etc)
Sports Car Championship (Boxsters, Elises, MX5, etc)
Super Car Championship (911, Ferrari 430, Lambourghini Gallardo, Audi R8 etc)
Prototype Champiuonship (Le Mans type cars - pure race cars)

OK, I am sure that there'll be a number of people now telling me that car X is a Sports Car & not a GT or vice versa & I have no doubt that there will be cross overs but in essence that's what I think it should be. And by the way, unless I can go and order one for the road NOW then it shouldn't be allowed, except in its own one make series, if that's what's wanted, eg Ginetta G50!!!

Simples!

[Speed-King]

Saloon Car Championship (BTCC etc as was)
GT Championship (Aston Martin Vantage, Jag XKR, Ferrari 612, Mazda RX8 etc)
Sports Car Championship (Boxsters, Elises, MX5, etc)
Super Car Championship (911, Ferrari 430, Lambourghini Gallardo, Audi R8 etc)
Prototype Champiuonship (Le Mans type cars - pure race cars)

But when you fragment it that much, you'll end up with depleted grids in all the categories which used to be a part of GT...

[gttouring]

I certainly feel the touring car needs to be a three/two box shape...I do not like hatches for the the supertouring regs were my favorite. The m3 is good but I prefer tourers to be 4 seat 4 door. AUSV8's are good too heh. But the DTM Mercedes 190 is tops. And Mansell in his mondeo defining for me. Not that Gurney in the 427 Galaxie wasn't great but that was such a different time.