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14 Oct 2007, 17:59 (Ref:2040094) | #1 | |
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Developing a sports prototype
Reading this months Racecar Engineering I was struck how little time some front running LMP's spend in the windtunnel.
Apparently Audi and Peugeot both run programs similar to a small F1 team, but smaller teams only spend a few days in the tunnel. Do Lola have their own wind tunnel, if so shouldn't they be way ahead of other manufactuers without access to such facilities, considering aero is so important that F1 teams often run 24/7 programs? I also found it interesting that a current LMP produces 1500kg (3300lb) of downforce at 150mph, which is equal to a modern F1 car! BTW, which wind tunnels are used by LMP teams, and are some better than others? |
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14 Oct 2007, 18:05 (Ref:2040101) | #2 | ||
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Embassy uses the ruag.ch windtunel.
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14 Oct 2007, 18:20 (Ref:2040122) | #3 | ||
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Im pretty certain some use the one at MIRA.
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The race track and the human body, both born of the earth, drive to be one with the earth, and through the earth one with the car, drive to the undiminished dream, single moments of pleasure, an eternity of memories. |
14 Oct 2007, 18:42 (Ref:2040137) | #4 | |||||
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Quote:
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Lola's tunnel; Quote:
L.P. |
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14 Oct 2007, 18:53 (Ref:2040147) | #5 | ||
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Wind tunnel time is very, very expensive. Then again, so are wind tunnels.
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14 Oct 2007, 19:59 (Ref:2040196) | #6 | |||
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Or put car in long narrow garage, several BIG BARN fans on one end of garage. May not have the computers to measure, but it is a start. |
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"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG |
14 Oct 2007, 20:22 (Ref:2040228) | #7 | |
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Dome has it's own wind tunnel.
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14 Oct 2007, 21:30 (Ref:2040307) | #8 | ||
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But no cars it seems, at least competitive ones...
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Fred Mackowiecki- the one man I'd love to swap surnames (and talent) with. |
14 Oct 2007, 23:23 (Ref:2040375) | #9 | |||
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14 Oct 2007, 23:56 (Ref:2040389) | #10 | |||
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Also, CFD is very popular, and I am sure many mods are run through CFD before carbon, plastic, plaster or whatever is cut or molded, and then it is tested in tunnel to compare and corroberate the CFD model. All the calculations and permutations, and all of that requires bank of big zoomy computers and the technicians and engineers to support and analyze it all. I think aero is one of the downfalls of contemporary racing, but by the same token, it is utterly an utterly fascinating art. robert |
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15 Oct 2007, 01:15 (Ref:2040405) | #11 | ||
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The Audi and Pegueot programs are in the 50-60 day bracket possibly more. Yes, Lola has their own tunnel, but naturally there are costs even associated with running it. And I'm not talking about overhead, I'm talking about the costs of producing models and model parts. A company like Lola has to be very budget minded, and they certainly have a budget for their LMP programs. So even though in theory they can pop in whenever they want, the accountants actually dictate that more often than not. Somwhere within Lola's site they state the B05/40 or B06/10 had something like 290 hours of wind tunnel time. Using an 8 hour day, that's about 36 days. Imperial is still used, at least I beleive it is. Audi and Porsche use Dallara. The former Prost tunnel, (now called) ACE was used by Courage and I would guess Peugeot went there as well. MIRA is often used for full scale work. I'm unsure of their scale facilities. Creation used the Teddington tunnel (8 days). Acura uses the Auto Research Center in Indianapolis (Honda is part owner). Not sure where Zytek went but I would suspect the Teddington facility as well. Radical used the wind tunnel in Peter Elleray's brain. Figure most commercial facilities charge at or very near $1000/hour with a minimum of 10 hours/day. So you're talking $10,000/day. Add to that salaries for model makers and design engineers, not to mention tooling to create the initial model; you're easily looking at approaching $200,000 just to get to the point to be ready to spend $10,000/day! CFD still is of limited use in the scheme of things. Sure, if you have an F1 budget it is more useful. But its real limitation is the time it takes to run through various iterations. Figure in a average day you can do about 40 changes in the wind tunnel. And each change runs through a multi-point ride height map. So that's 40 different test items that have been run through that multi-point RH map. Well each RH point in CFD is in itself an iteration. So if you want to CFD a development item and say just run through a couple of RH points, depending on full model or not, you're more than likely looking at a couple of days given the computing power available to most outside F1. But CFD isn't necessarily used in that sense. Its power comes from the ability to graphically generate, nearly ad nauseum I might add, flow visualization schemes. After you have a CFD run, you can pick any point in space and ask for a stream line to be generated. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Flow visualisations, pressure distrubutions, etc., etc. Very interesting stuff. Though admittedly I still scoff at Can't Find Downforce, call me old fashioned. 3300 lbs @ 150 is approaching 6000 lbs. at 200...that's getting to be pretty decent. |
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15 Oct 2007, 03:42 (Ref:2040434) | #12 | ||
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R.I.P Colin McRae. |
15 Oct 2007, 14:11 (Ref:2040752) | #13 | ||
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15 Oct 2007, 14:15 (Ref:2040756) | #14 | |||
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15 Oct 2007, 14:34 (Ref:2040774) | #15 | ||
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Thanks for interesting post MM.
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15 Oct 2007, 17:56 (Ref:2040947) | #16 | ||
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15 Oct 2007, 18:22 (Ref:2040970) | #17 | ||||
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15 Oct 2007, 20:26 (Ref:2041088) | #18 | ||
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This may be why accura ( honda ) went with two differnt chassies. Why design themselves when chassies are aready in use, and successful, or copy the better of the two.
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"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG |
16 Oct 2007, 00:30 (Ref:2041220) | #19 | ||
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16 Oct 2007, 11:49 (Ref:2041615) | #20 | |||
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16 Oct 2007, 12:16 (Ref:2041660) | #21 | ||
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To add to Mikes answer Audi - thier own (full scale) Porsche - thier own (50%?) + university of stuttgart (Full scale) Courage - (ACE 50%) Lola - (Lola 50%) Lavaggi - not sure but 1/3rd scale Creation - Teddington Zytek - not sure Acura - not sure Pesca - they dont! Radical - MIRA 100% Pilbeam - Don't know WR - somewhere near paris Lister - MIRA 100% Dome - Dome 50% Zulltec - ACE Embassy - RUAG The most advanced 50% tunnel in the world is probably Dome, followed closely by Toyota F1. Most advance 100% will be Windshear I think. Last edited by ss_collins; 16 Oct 2007 at 12:18. |
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Chase the horizon |
16 Oct 2007, 12:33 (Ref:2041685) | #22 | |||
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I second AU N EGL's agreement ....... |
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44 days... |
16 Oct 2007, 13:53 (Ref:2041757) | #23 | |||
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"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG |
16 Oct 2007, 13:57 (Ref:2041763) | #24 | |||
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I thought Porsche did all the Porsching? |
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Fred Mackowiecki- the one man I'd love to swap surnames (and talent) with. |
16 Oct 2007, 14:15 (Ref:2041787) | #25 | |||
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Two NASCAR, One Busch, team, the IRL team and yes the ALMS Porsche Sypder team. So dont you think Penske would put the spyders into their wind tunnel and test? Penskeracing.com and take a tour of their facility. If I had that kind of money and my own wind tunnel, my cars would be in there as much as possible, to check different wind effects and aero body parts for different tracks. and IIRC both the Spyders and the R10s have differnt body parts for diffent types of tracks and different downforces. Last edited by AU N EGL; 16 Oct 2007 at 14:17. |
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"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG |
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