HSCC Brands Hatch Superprix

[Lancsbreaker]

[QUOTE=The Fat Clerk;4168735

As a Clerk, safety in general, particularly Marshals & Drivers has to be a major consideration when making a decision.
Code 60 anyone?[/QUOTE]


As one who has done most of my racing with CSCC, who I think are the only adherents to Code 60, I found it worked well - and certainly gets the racing back live asap. I know having done SC duties that having to do an extra lap holding the pack back because the clearance is completed too late to switch off the yellows and clear off to the pits is a pain for all concerned. (Not too much of an issue at Brands Indy, maybe, but at Oulton full circuit it takes some time!) I was very proud that on one of our runs at Oulton we managed to pace the field just slowly enough for a live snatch to clear the issue so we could have only a single SC lap....but it was close....

[The Fat Clerk]

For some unknown reason, some of the 'big' clubs didn't give Code 60 a chance and so it started off dead in the water.
Personally, I'd use Code 60, Safety Car, Red Flag in that order.

[Mike Harte]

In almost 5 years of racing, about 100 races I suppose, in the 60s, I cannot recall either a safety car or a red flag. Plus all the other races we watched during those weekends.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

In almost 5 years of racing, about 100 races I suppose, in the 60s, I cannot recall either a safety car or a red flag. Plus all the other races we watched during those weekends.

One problem is (I was going to use the word 'Sadly' here but realised for a number of reasons it wasn't appropriate) Mike, the attitude towards Health & Safety has changed a lot since those days.
Firstly, think of the cars (and for the purpose of this comparison, let's use Saloon cars). What sort of roll-over protection, drivers seat, steering wheel and seat belt did your Anglia have (and were they mandatory or did you choose a 'better' item) compared to what they have to use today? The same question goes for overalls, footwear and crash helmets. The safety elements for the driver have improved significantly over time (and this is why I couldn't use the word 'sadly'). Unfortunately this improved safety may explain the more gung-ho attitude of the drivers who feel more inclined to take risks as they feel the chances of becoming injured (compared to your day) is not as likely (although we all know examples of sadly where drivers can stlll get injured). I know from my very brief spell of racing 40 odd years ago, I didn't think I would hurt myself, but two other possibilities steadied me up. Firstly I didn't want to look a prat, and secondly I knew that any repair costs would come straight out of my own pocket and just doing the racing was costing me everything that I had at the time.
Of course the 'Health & Safety' thing has also changed the way that procedures now have to be carried out too and in all aspects of motorsport, and again we all know that even then things can go tragically wrong, but really, the volunteer marshals deserve to be shown the same (if not greater) respect towards their safety as do the drivers.
I understand the frustration for the spectators caused by the delays, they're not seeing the action that they feel they paid for when they bought their entrance ticket, but I would also like to think that neither would these spectators also think that seeing drivers or volunteers getting hurt was also not what they paid for either.
I know I'm not offering a solution to the problem here, but am just trying to point out another extreme so that hopefully some sort of middle-ground can be reached.

[Mike Harte]

I understand all of that, Viv, and you are quite right in what you say. However, the attitudes that prevailed back in the day was different. I don't know what is said nowadays, but back then at the drivers' briefing the CoC was quite explicit about what he expected of the drivers' behaviour on the circuit. And if anyone transgressed, the pit marshals would immediately put out a black flag.

It happened at one race I was in, and a driver of a Mini had forced me of the circuit at the hairpin at the end of the Norwich straight at Snetterton. A lap later, the black flag was put out for the Mini, unfortunately too late as he had ploughed into the back of a gaggle of other Minis, ending up in the wheat field just after the pits. It turned out that it was his first ever race, in a car borrowed from a friend that was written off and certainly not pleasing his friend. And to top it off, the idiot's licence was then suspended, quite rightly so.

One thing that I do remember from those drivers' briefings that we were always told to respect our fellow competitors. As you say, most of us paid for our cars, and we would have had to dig into our pockets if we sustained any damage.

And yes, safety equipment was far more elementary back then, although I did try to get the best that I could afford. I had one of Aley's Roll-over bar which is nowhere as sophisticated, or as safe, as today's, but I did wear one of Les Leston's Nomex fire retardment race suit plus the full Nomex underwear twin suit. Gloves where what was considered to be motoring gloves, leather on the palm and a knitted back, whilst the shoes, I remember, were a pair of brown slip-ons. All that plus a Bell peaked helmet and a Nomex mask not a balaclava as worn now. Strangely, the seat that I managed to get hold of was very nearly, I would say, to current ones, although it didn't have the upper top sides to stop your head floating about, but it did have twin slots at the top for the full harness that I had but without the crotch strap.

[Alan Morgan]

However, I do believe that he now have a very different breed of drivers to that of years gone by, all or most with an almost win at all cost rather than the attitude that the majority of drivers back in the day at clubbie type meetings who were there because they enjoyed racing almost regardless of where they finished across the line.

...and that's why track days are so popular

[RAP]

I've been spectating for 60 years and I would ask what EVIDENCE there is that there are more incidents. I remember there being plenty of spins & crashes back then.

[delta]

Interesting all this . When I had my first race at Silverstone way back in 1976. I spun twice in qualy . Got hauled up
In front of C of the C . Little telling off and quizzed as to why I spun . With that in mind I made sure I did not spin in the race .

[Thundersports]

Have to agree with others it was a very poor meeting and a shadow of past events. We parted with £52 to both gain admission on Sunday and frankly felt we'd been ripped off by the end of the day. The racing was mediocre at best with most grids to slim to make any kind of spectacle on the GP circuit. As others have said the Safety car situation is beyond a joke with this meeting being notorious for them.

Sadly the whole scene seems to be dyeing a slow and frustrating death. A cull of at least a third of Historic meetings and Clubs running together regularly like they do at the Classic is a step forward. The clubs and circuit owners need to have some very serious conversations on how to arrest this decline with the current economy etc.

[fergus_r]

As a regular attendee at Brands in years gone by (but more sporadic nowadays), race interruptions have been a problem for many years and seem to get worse as time goes on. This issue is heightened on the GP circuit where there are, of course, more corners for potential issues to occur at.

The same issues do of course happen at other venues, but I do believe Brands to be one of the worst culprits. So imagine my surprise when, just two weeks ago, a GP circuit meeting (and Indy on the second day), with enormous grids and speed differences, ran largely uninterrupted throughout. That's a rarity.

Regarding trackdays - they're far cheaper, provide more track time, and are significantly more accessible for the majority of people. Their appeal is further emphasised when you see yet another 15 or 20 minute race being spent cruising round behind the safety car, or worse still, races being lost in their entirety - which is not uncommon.

[flatlandsman]

I guess running a meeting the same time as Goodwood has its price. I do often feel like LM manages with the help of others to try his hardest to make this weekend almost totally free of anything remotely near. there was so little on over this last weekend, and that to me, in the middle of summer whiffs a bit!

there was also stuff at Combe, but they tend to do their own thing, very well I might add

[Plantagenet]

I raced at the Superprix - and was partly responsible for one safety car so i apologize!

From a racer's perspective, to my mind HSCC is now too bigger club with so many series that you often feel you are shoe-horned into the agenda on the bigger meetings. This leads to very tight agendas and then some of the farcical scenes late on Saturday when Formula junior spent most of their (abbreviated) race behind a safety car and FF2000 had barely 10 minutes. This isn't good enough when a race weekend at Brands GP can easily creep towards £1k.

A much better approach would be to try and select a smaller number of races and try to get bigger grids for these. For example, you could easily combine both FF series (classic and historic) to get a grid of 30. If you don't race at Brands GP every year, so be it...consider it a treat (an expensive treat) when you do.

One final point point about safety cars. Brands does seem to be the most prone on the calendar - i think this is partly the technical nature of the course and also the big gravel trap at Paddock. Some comments on here compare to the halcyon days of the 60s where there were no safety cars (apparently)...but forgot to mention that safety was awful, parked cars everywhere etc. There aren't many things in life today than compare well to the 60s and you only have to look at modern F1 and their almost addiction to safety cars to realize than this isn't just a feature of historic racing.

[Mike Crow]

If the programme is running ahead of time ( which quite often happens even with a packed schedule) why can’t the clock be reset by a few minutes at the end of a safety car period to recover some time lost by the slow laps? Goodwood often do this and it seems to work there.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Mike Crow

If the programme is running ahead of time ( which quite often happens even with a packed schedule) why can’t the clock be reset by a few minutes at the end of a safety car period to recover some time lost by the slow laps? Goodwood often do this and it seems to work there.

I think there are two problems. The first is fuel capacity in that some cars won't necessarily be able to carry enough fuel to do a few extra laps. Linked to this is that some drivers will inevitably carry enough fuel to do the original race distance (there would be a weight advantage). This would mean that potentially there would be more recoveries at the end of the race to collect cars with no fuel. This would mean that the meeting could quickly switch from running ahead of time to be being behind.

I suspect the issue of fairness also comes into play. If a meeting is running ahead of time, a lengthend race could move it back in line with the timetable. A delay later on could mean that races towards the end of the day getting cut, which seems a bit unfair if competitors are the start of the day were given longer racers.

By keeping race lengths the same and pushing on with the timetable, there is a greater chance of everyone having a comparable experience.

I accept Goodwood does as you suggest. However, the economics of their meetings are different and generally have bigger gaps between races. Therefore, the preceding issues are less likely to occur.

[percy]

Yes, it was disappointing with all the stoppages/interruptions, but there was still some good racing to be watched...
a few pics...

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by kipper

I think there are two problems. The first is fuel capacity in that some cars won't necessarily be able to carry enough fuel to do a few extra laps. Linked to this is that some drivers will inevitably carry enough fuel to do the original race distance (there would be a weight advantage). This would mean that potentially there would be more recoveries at the end of the race to collect cars with no fuel. This would mean that the meeting could quickly switch from running ahead of time to be being behind.

That could very easily cause a problem as you say, my mechanics always knew how much fuel we would need for a race and just put a "little" bit more in for that very purpose. At Spa one year I ran out of fuel at La Source after taking the flag the finish line !

[Mike Crow]

Originally Posted by kipper

I think there are two problems. The first is fuel capacity in that some cars won't necessarily be able to carry enough fuel to do a few extra laps. Linked to this is that some drivers will inevitably carry enough fuel to do the original race distance (there would be a weight advantage). This would mean that potentially there would be more recoveries at the end of the race to collect cars with no fuel. This would mean that the meeting could quickly switch from running ahead of time to be being behind.

I suspect the issue of fairness also comes into play. If a meeting is running ahead of time, a lengthend race could move it back in line with the timetable. A delay later on could mean that races towards the end of the day getting cut, which seems a bit unfair if competitors are the start of the day were given longer racers.

By keeping race lengths the same and pushing on with the timetable, there is a greater chance of everyone having a comparable experience.

I accept Goodwood does as you suggest. However, the economics of their meetings are different and generally have bigger gaps between races. Therefore, the preceding issues are less likely to occur.

Fuel should not be a problem. Race distance would still be the same or less - it would just take longer.. Castle Combe always reduce time by just a couple of minutes for all races left if the programme gets behind which is fairer than leaving the delays to pile up at the end.

[RAP]

"Personally I think part of the trouble is Mr Palmer. Silverstone still do live single seater snatches why don't MSVR?."

I have been told that Andy Dee-Crowne is again live snatch altogether. Is this right?
If so a bit of a self-inflicted wound?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by RAP

I have been told that Andy Dee-Crowne is again live snatch altogether. Is this right?
If so a bit of a self-inflicted wound?

I'm not sure whether it is true or not. However, of the circuits that the HSCC generally race at, MSV don't allow live snatches for single-seaters or races featuring open sports cars and Croft is not licenced for live snatches. Therefore, it is only the Silverstone meetings where live snatching could be used for all races on the programme.

[Willmaz223]

Posted on wrong thread*