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Old 9 Apr 2018, 16:52 (Ref:3814461)   #301
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I see things got worse for Hartley as he was given a post race penalty of 30 seconds for a warm up lap infringement, as was Perez. Thus Perez and Hartley were re classified 16th and 17th behind the two Williams.

Nothing to do with their lap 1 contact, as I said this was due to warm up infringements, with both drivers failing to folllow protocol.

https://au.eurosport.com/formula-1/h...09/story.shtml
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 17:18 (Ref:3814468)   #302
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I see things got worse for Hartley as he was given a post race penalty of 30 seconds for a warm up lap infringement, as was Perez. Thus Perez and Hartley were re classified 16th and 17th behind the two Williams.

Nothing to do with their lap 1 contact, as I said this was due to warm up infringements, with both drivers failing to folllow protocol.

https://au.eurosport.com/formula-1/h...09/story.shtml
Yet another stupid regulation.

I can sort of understand that if you are delayed on the grid for the green flag lap and the whole field passes by that you should start from the pit lane; but why not from the back of the grid?

But what I cannot for the life of me comprehend is that if just one car passes you and you do not re-take your correct position in the line of cars before a certain line, then you also have to start from the pit lane.

In this case, Perez was penalised because he didn't let Hartley get past to retake his "rightful" position, and Hartley was penalised because he should have therefore driven into the pits to start from there.

All I can do is just shake my head at the crassness and pettiness of it. And they wonder what is wrong with F1 !
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 17:44 (Ref:3814476)   #303
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Just idiocy. But I'm not surprised. Lunacy seems to be completely rife with the regulations and the application of them these days.
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 19:50 (Ref:3814510)   #304
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Yet another stupid regulation.

I can sort of understand that if you are delayed on the grid for the green flag lap and the whole field passes by that you should start from the pit lane; but why not from the back of the grid?

But what I cannot for the life of me comprehend is that if just one car passes you and you do not re-take your correct position in the line of cars before a certain line, then you also have to start from the pit lane.

In this case, Perez was penalised because he didn't let Hartley get past to retake his "rightful" position, and Hartley was penalised because he should have therefore driven into the pits to start from there.

All I can do is just shake my head at the crassness and pettiness of it. And they wonder what is wrong with F1 !
To be honest, I am not sure what is wrong with the rule as written. If you get away slowly, you are given a chance to get back into position. If you can't manage to do that within a reasonable amount of time, then don't try to use the entire circuit to carve your way through the field (significant risk for collision as nobody really expects to be overtaken during formation lap) and start from the back.

As to why the pitlane vs. back of the field. Where exactly do you go? What if more than one car has issues? Do you have to remember which side you should line up on? What if the other guy lines up incorrectly, do you take his spot, or do you continue to do the wrong thing and line up behind him? It could be a big mess by just letting them figure it out on the fly. Clearly in this incident you had two drivers who didn't know what to do.

Just have them start from pit lane with less opportunity for shenanigans and/or something that causes a false start for the entire field?

It sounds like the real problem is that Perez was probably being difficult and Hartley didn't know he could regain his position and was afraid to overtake on the formation lap. I am a bit of a Hartley fan, but I put most of the blame on him (which seems to be what they did).

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Old 9 Apr 2018, 20:26 (Ref:3814516)   #305
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waiting for a car that takes their formation lap too slowly is kind of unfair to the other cars sitting their waiting no?

over complicated engines and PU usage rules, how much time can these cars sit there idling before they start blowing up?
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 20:57 (Ref:3814524)   #306
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To be honest, I am not sure what is wrong with the rule as written. If you get away slowly, you are given a chance to get back into position. If you can't manage to do that within a reasonable amount of time, then don't try to use the entire circuit to carve your way through the field (significant risk for collision as nobody really expects to be overtaken during formation lap) and start from the back.

As to why the pitlane vs. back of the field. Where exactly do you go? What if more than one car has issues? Do you have to remember which side you should line up on? What if the other guy lines up incorrectly, do you take his spot, or do you continue to do the wrong thing and line up behind him? It could be a big mess by just letting them figure it out on the fly. Clearly in this incident you had two drivers who didn't know what to do.

Just have them start from pit lane with less opportunity for shenanigans and/or something that causes a false start for the entire field?

It sounds like the real problem is that Perez was probably being difficult and Hartley didn't know he could regain his position and was afraid to overtake on the formation lap. I am a bit of a Hartley fan, but I put most of the blame on him (which seems to be what they did).

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Exactly. Hartley doesn’t know the rules. Totally inexcusable at this level. Totally.
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 21:33 (Ref:3814537)   #307
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waiting for a car that takes their formation lap too slowly is kind of unfair to the other cars sitting their waiting no?

over complicated engines and PU usage rules, how much time can these cars sit there idling before they start blowing up?
I wonder if there is a time limit to make it around during the formation lap to the grid or pit lane as the cars in the front wait?

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Exactly. Hartley doesn’t know the rules. Totally inexcusable at this level. Totally.
Yet if I remember correctly, it seems about once every season or two we have someone who seems to not know the rules and has some type of issue like this. And I could be wrong, but race start, restart and pit lane procedures seems to be a common thing for drivers to stumble on? Even recently with the virtual safety car issue and Vettel's pit stop left many who probably should understand scratching their heads?

There is also the issue of different regulations between series that trip people up. That happens everywhere. Top team ran tape over bodywork seams in IMSA race that I think was allowed in WEC, but not IMSA if I remember correctly.

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Old 9 Apr 2018, 21:58 (Ref:3814541)   #308
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Seems a little harsh toward Hartley. Wouldn't be the first time Perez has been difficult. If he made it hard for Hartley to get past, even though Perez would fully know he should be behknd Hartley, that's on him more than Hartley. Also, Hartley is probably a little more cautious than most f1 drivers, with his sports car experience where keeping the car together is a bigger deal than in f1.
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 21:59 (Ref:3814542)   #309
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Knowing the rules is one of the first things in every driver contract. Not very smart at all not knowing the proper procedures. I’d say lucky for him they haven’t got any pukka third drivers.
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 22:04 (Ref:3814544)   #310
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Does it matter if he knows the rules if Perez wanted to pretend hartley was ocon on the formation lap?
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 22:09 (Ref:3814545)   #311
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If he can’t take his place then he should know to head for the pit lane. What he did wrong meant that even if he somehow had won the race he would have been penalised down to the back. Team management have to be unhappy as it wastes the whole weekend 1000%.
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Old 10 Apr 2018, 00:52 (Ref:3814556)   #312
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It sounds like the real problem is that Perez was probably being difficult and Hartley didn't know he could regain his position and was afraid to overtake on the formation lap. I am a bit of a Hartley fan, but I put most of the blame on him (which seems to be what they did).

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Perez being difficult? Said no one ever

Perez and Grosjean....I try block them out during the races.
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Old 10 Apr 2018, 02:57 (Ref:3814568)   #313
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Knowing the rules is one of the first things in every driver contract. Not very smart at all not knowing the proper procedures. I’d say lucky for him they haven’t got any pukka third drivers.
Sounds to me like you're doing your usual and speaking out of the lower orifice. I'm betting the isn't a single letter or thought to the rules within any driver's contract. That's what the team works on and the fact they didn't tell him pass Perez and get in proper formation? That's 1000% on them, and they know EXACTLY where their drivers are on track to insane accuracy.
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Old 10 Apr 2018, 03:25 (Ref:3814572)   #314
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Whatever. Responsibility for knowing the rules is a key item in any driver contract I’ve seen. And that is more than a few. You are right though, you have to wonder why the team didn’t tell him to put if he hadn’t regained his correct position. It’s tempting to blame Perez more than 50% but the fact that the FIA didn’t should show you something.
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Old 10 Apr 2018, 09:15 (Ref:3814608)   #315
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It seems as though only Ays has understood the reason behind my post. It was not about whether a driver knows every sing rule and regulation, nor whether it was the responsibility of the pit-wall crew to advise him on what he should or should not do.

The post was about the arbitrary rules that the FIA have imposed.

As I wrote, I can understand the rule if it is applied when a car has only moved off after all the rest of the grid have gone by, but in this case and it is this case that I highlighted, only one car (Perez) had passed. Perez then made it nigh on impossible for Hartley to retake his position before they crossed a certain line around the circuit.

I fail to see why Hartley should be punished for the behaviour of another competitor. Why should Hartley have to start from the pits when Perez wouldn't let him pass?

Next thing we know, the FIA will probably introduce a new rule that if you get bogged down off the line at the start of the race and you get passed that you then have to complete a drive through as a penalty.

As I said originally, it is crass and petty.
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Old 10 Apr 2018, 10:28 (Ref:3814623)   #316
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As I said originally, it is crass and petty.
No, it isn't. It isn't really that obtuse, either - the rule is there to prevent drivers deliberately allowing another driver to advance on the grid, or take advantage of a "hole" on the grid.

In a 2 car per team competition, it's ridiculously important that the "number 1" driver in a team isn't offered a deliberate advantage by their own team-mate or a driver with, for example, the same engine supplier.

I think it's entirely fair to penalise both drivers in terms of race time in this case, but I disagree with the penalty points they gave to Hartley - however we haven't got the transcript of the proceedings so we'll never know, or it's highly unlikely we'll ever know, why they were given out and Perez didn't get any.
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Old 10 Apr 2018, 10:29 (Ref:3814624)   #317
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I agree Checo, should have let him back past, he was making Hartley being unfairly punished. Complete dipsticks to punish Hartley for that
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Old 10 Apr 2018, 11:02 (Ref:3814630)   #318
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But, Greem, none of that applied in this case. And what's happened to common sense?

And instead of Hartley retaking his position in the snake by some arbitrary point, he went to his correct position on the grid in readiness for the start of the race. Rules and regulations are supposed to be in place to stop competitors taking unfair advantage of situations, as you state above, but that clearly wasn't the case here. Here there were two different teams with two different power sources.

If common sense was allowed to prevail then only Perez should have been given a metaphorical slap for being stupid for not letting Hartley get by. And that should have been the end of it, in my simple mind. Instead, they've made a mountain out of a molehill.
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Old 10 Apr 2018, 11:55 (Ref:3814638)   #319
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If common sense was allowed to prevail then only Perez should have been given a metaphorical slap for being stupid for not letting Hartley get by. And that should have been the end of it, in my simple mind. Instead, they've made a mountain out of a molehill.
I don't think I've ever seen a rulebook with a Common Sense appendix!

I completely understand why you think what you think, and I agree to some extent, but the rule exists and they can't ignore it or they'll have the baying masses accusing them of favouritism. Or bias. Or something.
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Old 10 Apr 2018, 14:27 (Ref:3814674)   #320
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I wonder if there is a time limit to make it around during the formation lap to the grid or pit lane as the cars in the front wait?
i dont know. with different track lengths would a min time even be effective? would almost have to have a different min time for each track.

truthfully i didnt even know this Perez/Hartley thing was a rule but when i read about it my thoughts did go towards this being a common sense/catch all sort of rule that would prevent people from being daft without the need to be specific.

i guess if one thing bothers me though is why was it only applied post race (or at least i think it was post race...if it wasnt please ignore this next bit).

seems like something that should have been sorted more quickly like a false start and/or penalized at the same time they looked at their first lap incident.

for me its not a stretch to think that their formation lap issues were a contributing factor for their first lap incident no? so connect the two incidents.

anyways, its as if (or leaves the impression imo) the stewards didnt realize it was an infraction until post race and needed someone to tell them it was before handing down the penalty.

perhaps knowing the rules should be part of the stewards' contracts!
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Old 10 Apr 2018, 18:37 (Ref:3814713)   #321
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But, Greem, none of that applied in this case. And what's happened to common sense?
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I don't think I've ever seen a rulebook with a Common Sense appendix!
Exactly. Everyone complains when rules are broken and penalties not applied to someone. Usually it happens when their driver has been "wronged" by a competitor. But at the same time they are quick to want the rules to be bent on a regular basis. I expect they also try to apply common sense when they can. Regardless, we can't have it both ways people!

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If common sense was allowed to prevail then only Perez should have been given a metaphorical slap for being stupid for not letting Hartley get by. And that should have been the end of it, in my simple mind. Instead, they've made a mountain out of a molehill.
I think we are making a mountain out of a molehill! I also think we are generally misrepresenting what happened as well. I frankly only know what was listed in the article linked earlier, but it seemed to have some good details. Here is two quotes...

Quote:
The stewards' official statements said: "Car 11 (Perez) overtook car 28 (Hartley) before Turn 1 and then during the remainder of the formation lap made no noticeable effort to allow car 28 to regain his position.

"The driver of car 11 also admitted the driver of car 28 was not unduly delayed when leaving the grid to start the formation lap.
That is the Perez "being difficult" part. Note, nowhere does it say Perez stopped Hartley from retaking the position. But he clearly also didn't slow down and wave him by (or something similar).

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Hartley didn't [start from the pits], but he [also]didn't actually try and get back [into position]. This is the slightly odd thing.
It sounds like if Hartley had at least tried to get his position back he might have walked away without any issues? But he made no attempts. Sounds like passive inaction by both drivers (that could have been corrected on track) got both in a tiny bit of hot water. It still is a lot of talk for mostly nothing.

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i guess if one thing bothers me though is why was it only applied post race (or at least i think it was post race...if it wasnt please ignore this next bit).

seems like something that should have been sorted more quickly like a false start and/or penalized at the same time they looked at their first lap incident.

for me its not a stretch to think that their formation lap issues were a contributing factor for their first lap incident no? so connect the two incidents.

anyways, its as if (or leaves the impression imo) the stewards didnt realize it was an infraction until post race and needed someone to tell them it was before handing down the penalty.
I could be wrong, but I think I saw mention of the stewards investigation shortly after they mentioned they would be investigating the collision at the start. So I think it was discussed during the race, but they probably didn't know what to do about it during the race.

I have to wonder if there was a "tit for tat" thing going on. Such as FI complained to race control about the collision (which resulted in a time penalty for Hartley), so then TR said... fine and then complained about Perez overtaking Hartley at the start?

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Old 10 Apr 2018, 19:04 (Ref:3814719)   #322
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I have to wonder if there was a "tit for tat" thing going on. Such as FI complained to race control about the collision (which resulted in a time penalty for Hartley), so then TR said... fine and then complained about Perez overtaking Hartley at the start?
that sounds about right!
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Old 10 Apr 2018, 20:50 (Ref:3814740)   #323
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That seems like a crazy rule! Here's a completely ridiculous hypothetical scenario...

Last race of the season, Driver 1 needs to win the race to win the championship. Driver 1 is on pole, with championship rival Driver 2 in second.

Formation lap start: Driver 2 takes off like a scalded cat overtakes Driver 1 and leaves Driver 1 no opportunity to overtake. Driver 2 takes up P2 on the grid, followed by Driver 1 and the rest of the field.

If I understand this rule correctly, Driver 1 has to start from pit lane or gets a 10 second stop/go or 30 second time penalty, effectively taking them out of the championship?
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Old 10 Apr 2018, 21:02 (Ref:3814742)   #324
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That seems like a crazy rule! Here's a completely ridiculous hypothetical scenario...

Last race of the season, Driver 1 needs to win the race to win the championship. Driver 1 is on pole, with championship rival Driver 2 in second.

Formation lap start: Driver 2 takes off like a scalded cat overtakes Driver 1 and leaves Driver 1 no opportunity to overtake. Driver 2 takes up P2 on the grid, followed by Driver 1 and the rest of the field.

If I understand this rule correctly, Driver 1 has to start from pit lane or gets a 10 second stop/go or 30 second time penalty, effectively taking them out of the championship?
No. Totally different in that in your example d2 would be penalised for overtaking as has happened before. TGF etc.

That isn’t what happened on Sunday.
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Old 11 Apr 2018, 10:34 (Ref:3814841)   #325
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I see a lot of comments that Perez was being difficult, but was he really?

If the "Hartley didn't know the rules" part is true, did he even attempt to take his position back? Or was he just happy to follow Perez knowing that it would make no difference to taking his exact spot on the grid as Perez would take the other lane anyhow - as in: there would be no car in the way, and he himself would be in nobody's way either.
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