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Old 10 Sep 2018, 11:53 (Ref:3849175)   #151
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The BTCC seems to have been getting closer and closer to a silhouette formula for some years.



Future historic racing may, therefore, tend in the same direction - for as long as racing of any from exists in Europe.


Or, to put that another way, what has been happening has become the norm and seems to be accepted by most people and unless the genuine original "historic and classic" car market values collapse in the near future I suspect that most people will continue to accept that racing a very close replica of a car with a multi-million pound value probably suits nearly all of those people who can afford to be in the game.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 13:58 (Ref:3849193)   #152
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Car of the meeting for me was the P57 BRM.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 14:47 (Ref:3849198)   #153
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Was that the grey, odd looking car?
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 14:47 (Ref:3849199)   #154
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We have several issues and a cross issue discussion

Replicas/continuation vs original cars.
fakes
Hot rods or cars which have been recreated in an excessively over developed fashion with all new optimised parts. A majority of the StMarys, RAC TT and apparently Kinrara fall into this category. If it continues as is we'll get to the point where someone could sue Goodwood under the trades descriptions act!


If a Cortina has a finite competitive life before the shell fatigues, then new ones or
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 14:48 (Ref:3849200)   #155
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That was the Alvin grey lady, with Gerry Marshall arguably the best car/driver combo ever at Goodwood!

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Was that the grey, odd looking car?
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 14:58 (Ref:3849202)   #156
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Indeed and they come up every year.

Fakes are maybe the main issue since organisers seem to accept recreations/continuatiuons.

In the Kinrara I assume the Jaguars would be the target since the cost of replicating any of the Ferraris would surely be prohibitive, I realise a Lightweight E type is not exactly cheap but you perhaps understand my point.

That said the Breadvan started out as a 250SWB but that was in another lifetime. And it has been around since the 60s.

Also is it limited to those with roofs? What about some of the single-seaters that were out there?

Ultimately should we allow this to impact the spectacle? Most punters don't know or don't worry about the legitimacy of the cars. They just want to see good, exciting racing and let's face it, the majority of the races were very good.

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That was the Alvin grey lady, with Gerry Marshall arguably the best car/driver combo ever at Goodwood!
Indeed but I was referring to one of the formula one cars that was racing yesterday.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 15:21 (Ref:3849210)   #157
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Indeed and they come up every year.

Also is it limited to those with roofs? What about some of the single-seaters that were out there?

Ultimately should we allow this to impact the spectacle? Most punters don't know or don't worry about the legitimacy of the cars. They just want to see good, exciting racing and let's face it, the majority of the races were very good.
I guess most of the E Types in the Kinrara are built especially for that and Pre ‘63 races. They look much more like road cars that those in the TT, but....

Not sure about single seaters, but my (albeit limited) knowledge of the FJ world would suggest that in that category every car is original. Of course some will have had new chassis etc over time, but that comes under ‘triggers broom’.....

And your final paragraph is my take. It’s only serious enthusiasts that can tell the difference between a new Cortina and a period one....
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 15:36 (Ref:3849213)   #158
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if you put an old cortina next to a 'new' one, Stevie Wonder could spot the differences. same for minis, BMW's and Alfas.

and what happened to bumpers, trim, wheels, seats etc. even the colours are all wrong on some of them.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 15:42 (Ref:3849215)   #159
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Did they race with bumpers in period? As far as I recall they were bumperless. Have to Google it.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 15:58 (Ref:3849217)   #160
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The fabrication of 'new' racing E Types and Cobras tends to also mean the loss from the grid of more genuine and arguably more interesting cars. So you get entertaining racing in one sense, but you lose some of the spectacle too. Inside out knowledge of genuine or fake racing cars might be the preserve of a few, but the loss of diversity on the grid is noticed by a lot more. Ultimately this what made the Glover Trophy so great: the difference between the Ferrari and the Lotus made the dice more exciting. After all, there are easier and cheaper ways to see wheel to wheel racing. Historic racing is meant to be about the cars first and foremost.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 16:17 (Ref:3849219)   #161
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if you put an old cortina next to a 'new' one, Stevie Wonder could spot the differences. same for minis, BMW's and Alfas.
Just coming back to this, did you spot Marcus P telling the world that the Soper Cortina was more nose-down than the others because that's the way he builds them.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 16:18 (Ref:3849221)   #162
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Ultimately should we allow this to impact the spectacle? Most punters don't know or don't worry about the legitimacy of the cars. They just want to see good, exciting racing and let's face it, the majority of the races were very good.
Agreed, I would almost guarantee that 90% of the spectators would not be able to distinguish the difference between a genuine restored original and newly built replica. If it talks and walks like a duck.....
All this talk about modern drivers not fitting is a bit sour grapes in my view, Sam Tordoff drove the wheels off that 356 on Saturday and Ash Sutton was masterful in the red Cortina. Very strange that Pete Chambers being such an accomplished Porsche driver should make an adventurous overtake into St Marys in Sunday's race, I watched in disbelief from 200 yards away as he tried to slide up the inside of the Galaxie with the resulting contact and barrel rolls.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 16:20 (Ref:3849223)   #163
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Yet the good Lord March, as he was then, stated publicly only a couple of years ago that he would never allow continuation/replicas/hot rod types on his race cards.


Money talks, though. And while the above mentioned bring the punters in, I have a feeling that a bind eye will be turned on the shenanigans.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 16:21 (Ref:3849224)   #164
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Just coming back to this, did you spot Marcus P telling the world that the Soper Cortina was more nose-down than the others because that's the way he builds them.
I noticed that earlier in the year at the Donington historic, it's really pronounced even to the casual observer.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 16:31 (Ref:3849227)   #165
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Did they race with bumpers in period? As far as I recall they were bumperless. Have to Google it.
And roll cages?

None of the leading Jags in the Jack Sears Trophy had cages.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 16:33 (Ref:3849228)   #166
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Agreed, I would almost guarantee that 90% of the spectators would not be able to distinguish the difference between a genuine restored original and newly built replica. If it talks and walks like a duck.....
All this talk about modern drivers not fitting is a bit sour grapes in my view, Sam Tordoff drove the wheels off that 356 on Saturday and Ash Sutton was masterful in the red Cortina. Very strange that Pete Chambers being such an accomplished Porsche driver should make an adventurous overtake into St Marys in Sunday's race, I watched in disbelief from 200 yards away as he tried to slide up the inside of the Galaxie with the resulting contact and barrel rolls.
Ah sorry my thread wasn't sour grapes so apologies if it appears that way.

I do think we've now got professional and amateur historic racing and those of us who are amateurs are paying the same as the professional ergo its more expensive
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 18:13 (Ref:3849236)   #167
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Gp2 saloons raced with seats trim and bumpers.

It's in the letter of invite that cars comply, with period correct aesthetic, and stipulates detail, at least it was until very recently. The fia have given up (again) and changed app k so wind up windows are not obligatory, even if that's the way cars were made. Those slide rally things look ****ing awful. As do many other details, but the box of lead on the passenger side floor is the bees knees!

The red Cortina fell to bits. Which says all you need to know about attention to detail. The wrong detail for the occaision.

The 356 was well driven, but it's also a well built,tested, and proven car, in more than one pair of hands.

Goodwood attracts a lot of hoorays, the kind that go to horse racing but couldn't identify red rum in a line up of cats, it equally attracts people that know as much and more about certain cars as many drivers/owners. . . The members meeting is more popular in that respect, and the fact neither Friday or Sundays revival sold out this year kind of backs it up.


As an entrant/driver, no sour grapes, even with insurance and a cash injection, I'd have declined an invite to St Mary's. I'd gladly do my bit in Fordwater or Sears, you know most of the cars, entrants and drivers.

As an enthusiast, I'm ****ing livid with the *******isation of old cars and the rewriting of history in the interests of profit. Whatever Charles is called now, he has created a monster he can't control, or isn't prepared to because it's too good a cash cow.

Nothing at Goodwood is FIA, so that doesn't affect anything either, not that they do anything much, the money in historic racing goes elsewhere.

Brighton speed trials on a Lambretta anyone?
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 18:18 (Ref:3849237)   #168
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Yes just checked. The Jim Clarke Cortina ran with half bumpers. Just googled images.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 18:23 (Ref:3849239)   #169
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And roll cages?

None of the leading Jags in the Jack Sears Trophy had cages.

Back in the early/mid sixties, all the official works L/Cortinas ran with roll cages.


If you want to know how I can remember that, it is because during the course of one race on the Brands GP circuit, the late Jim Clark spent most of the race with his Cortina hanging on to the roll cage with his right hand to keep upright after one of his seat mountings broke. I seem to recall that driving with just one hand didn't seem to impede him sufficiently to stop him from winning the race.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 18:29 (Ref:3849242)   #170
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Comes back to the same question asked several times in recent years- What is The Revival? Theatrical event or a Historic Race Meeting......

Regarding roll cages, when the first Galaxie was bought over from the States for Jack Sears to drive, it had a cage that was designed to stiffen the car as well as provide protection. It had to be removed before the car was allowed to compete! As you say, Mike, mid 60s saw them starting to be adopted.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 18:48 (Ref:3849245)   #171
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I think it varied from International and national races. Likewise seats and interior ( I have a LOT Of photo's) most cars ran fully trimmed, but Jeff Uren was on the competitive case before most. This is May 1963, Silverstone. You won't find better footage and it's the only I've seen in colour. GT Cortina have everything except bumpers! It was an International race meeting. I was given this DVD by Duncan Uren, Jeffs son, I bought a load of memorabilia, photo's, cartoon and even paintings about 8-9 years ago.

https://youtu.be/IAoC5_BiAIk

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Yes just checked. The Jim Clarke Cortina ran with half bumpers. Just googled images.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 19:23 (Ref:3849251)   #172
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Great clip.... thanks for sharing.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 20:00 (Ref:3849256)   #173
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I first visited Goodwood in 1952, and continued almost until it closed, the Revival has little resemblance to my memories of racing back 'in the day', however, it is spectacular.
OK it is not a true historic event, so one must just accept it for what it is, Lord March's commercial venture based on a 50/60's race meeting.

When watching an action film we all know that all those bodies are not really dead, they are just acting, but that is what a film is, fantasy designed to entertain. The Goodwood Revival is little different.

If you want a true reflection of 1952, then you must do away with, modern helmets, HANS devices, fire proof clothing, roll over bars, etc, etc.

Of course you must also be prepared to accept a number of fatalities, quite common place as I can testify from experience.


I truly think that you just have to view it as another entertainment, on a par with going to the theatre.


Well as always it just my opinion.
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 20:59 (Ref:3849268)   #174
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Yes just checked. The Jim Clarke Cortina ran with half bumpers. Just googled images.

Yet I have here in front of me at the moment a picture of Jim Clark in Lotus Cortina 167 RUR at Snetterton in 1963 with no front bumpers. Inconsistent scrutineering maybe?
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Old 10 Sep 2018, 21:10 (Ref:3849270)   #175
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One quick comment as an 'umble spectator who can't be doing with the fancy dress, sorry "lifestyle" elements, at the Revival. To stand at Madgwick as the TT field comes through remains - regardless of what the cars are (or aren't) - an impressive sight ! Link to photos, as usual, to follow.
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