H-pattern for Gen 3 Quick- before it’s too late

[Mattracer]

I think all are agreed that Gen 3 seems like it will be awesome. Apart from the in-car viewing experience of course, which by current standards will likely continue to be an exercise in advertising placement. Whilst we acknowledge that this is important I think we’d all prefer our eyes to be looking at driver techniques and the skill involved in proper race driving using an H-pattern gearbox. I’d create a poll but don’t know how. I’m guessing it would be fairly conclusive which side would be favoured…

[Umai Naa]

Couldn't care less which they go with it.

H-pattern, paddles, sequential... they all get the job done.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mattracer

I think all are agreed that Gen 3 seems like it will be awesome. Apart from the in-car viewing experience of course, which by current standards will likely continue to be an exercise in advertising placement. Whilst we acknowledge that this is important I think we’d all prefer our eyes to be looking at driver techniques and the skill involved in proper race driving using an H-pattern gearbox. I’d create a poll but don’t know how. I’m guessing it would be fairly conclusive which side would be favoured…

Put drum brakes on them as well and a 4 barrel Holley dual pumper.

[Mattracer]

Originally Posted by Casper

Put drum brakes on them as well and a 4 barrel Holley dual pumper.

Agree- the braking distances will extend and they’ll have to watch the brakes! Good one…
Maybe the jetting will be out so more pit stops for real reasons rather than follow-me-in contrived stops. I’m all for better racing!
We can be serious or not I don’t mind

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Mattracer

I think all are agreed that Gen 3 seems like it will be awesome. Apart from the in-car viewing experience of course, which by current standards will likely continue to be an exercise in advertising placement. Whilst we acknowledge that this is important I think we’d all prefer our eyes to be looking at driver techniques and the skill involved in proper race driving using an H-pattern gearbox. I’d create a poll but don’t know how. I’m guessing it would be fairly conclusive which side would be favoured…

My issue with this view - I don't see how a H-pattern gearbox makes a 'proper race'. The logical conclusion of this is that anything that is not using a H-pattern is by default not a proper race.

Personally - I do appreciate in-car views of driver technique, but that is regardless of the technology in use. And I am also looking at what is happening outside of the car whilst on an in-car view.

In the situation below - I am watching how the driver is handling the car in relation to the track and other drivers - the race craft if you will.

[Mattracer]

The skill of heel and toe, using engine braking and skipping gears on the down changes and added left foot braking for those that partake is so much more interesting to watch on the in-car view. I was watching some footage from 2007 a year before the sequential shift was introduced of Skaife at a test day at Winton in one of Perkins Engineering’s cars and apart from the fascinating and quite brilliant technical feedback he was giving the engineer and the other crew members, was the involvement of the h-pattern change and how interesting, intriguing and technical it was to watch. Scroll to the comments feed and almost every comment was bring back the h-pattern and show the mastery of the drivers.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Couldn't care less which they go with it.

H-pattern, paddles, sequential... they all get the job done.

Indeed. The category races much bigger challenges then this.

[GTRMagic]

Is it still an H pattern gearbox if there are effectively 7 gears, 6 forward and one reverse?

(unless you use the AMR 6 speed from the Rx7 of days long past)

[E.B]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Is it still an H pattern gearbox if there are effectively 7 gears, 6 forward and one reverse?

(unless you use the AMR 6 speed from the Rx7 of days long past)

If you have to 'cross the gate' (through neutral) to select a gear in its own unique slot it is an H gearbox regardless of the number of slots / gears. That is my understanding.

As for the OP question my thoughts on an H style selection in SC is something where the ship for that sailed long ago, back when the move. to sequential was made.

Having said that I am very much for keeping the existing sequential set up, with the manual throttle blip and ability to heel and toe exactly as we have now. (Yes I am aware that there is an option for them to keep the sequential 'stick' selection but with the auto blip, possible via the software. I hope they dont utilise that option as then you also lose the need for heel & toe)

I am not a fan of the move to an automated style paddle shift with auto throttle blips etc..

If it aint broke dont fix it. Keep it as it is, as requested by drivers and many fans alike.

[bathurst77]

HH gearbox

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Mattracer

I was watching some footage from 2007 a year before the sequential shift was introduced of Skaife at a test day at Winton in one of Perkins Engineering’s cars and apart from the fascinating and quite brilliant technical feedback he was giving the engineer and the other crew members, was the involvement of the h-pattern change and how interesting, intriguing and technical it was to watch. Scroll to the comments feed and almost every comment was bring back the h-pattern and show the mastery of the drivers.

If you are talking about this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuStoVO2zq0 - then I fear you are exaggerating with 'almost every comment was bring back the h-pattern.

39 comments on the video.
1 says 'Now they want to go to stupid flappy paddles.'
1 says 'I never get tired of seeing that 5th to 2nd shift'
1 says 'How cool are gear sticks. Supercars would be idiots to bring in paddles'

Not exactly a unanimous vote to bring back h-pattern

[Kingair]

The good old nuns at our Catholic Primary School had a HQ Belmont with three on the tree, they managed ok.
So surely the pampered bus driver’s in Supercar land can handle a gearbox and a clutch.

Save the gearbox!

[crmalcolm]

All of those suggesting that the technology adopted should be one that requires H-pattern shift and throttle synch are advocating for 1891 technology as the future of Gen 3?

[chavez]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

All of those suggesting that the technology adopted should be one that requires H-pattern shift and throttle synch are advocating for 1891 technology as the future of Gen 3?

I can't believe they are planning on using a steering wheel. So 1898....

[Umai Naa]

Fancy having to have to get IN the car to operate it.

[Casper]

They should get rid of the stupid locker diff, we were using those (home made) in the 1960's and it is an archaic idea to say the least. Get rid of that and the front ends would be a lot different and cheaper.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Casper

They should get rid of the stupid locker diff, we were using those (home made) in the 1960's and it is an archaic idea to say the least. Get rid of that and the front ends would be a lot different and cheaper.

Hehehe I guess you mean the 'CIG' locker!

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by chavez

I can't believe they are planning on using a steering wheel. So 1898....

1898 would have used a tiller.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Mixer

1898 would have used a tiller.

I thought so too, but apparently the first steering wheel appeared in that year.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

H-pattern, paddles, sequential... they all get the job done.

Why don't you care? The nostalgia of the H-pattern is a lot of fun... particularly combined with pedal cam.

Amateur in homebrew NSX w/ pedal cam: https://youtu.be/2Hm4LvnnnBc?t=125
Going much slower than someone in a late model paddle shift Carrera Cup car? Yes. Having more fun? Quite possibly.

Mr. Seton in Sierra: https://youtu.be/Lzcs-SIP-pk?t=8

Mr. Skaife in Commodore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfAp7UjM4-k

Mr. McRae in Impreza: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lnOX85clr4

Not the fastest way, but lots of fun!

However I'm concerned that the XTrac is fundamentally a sequential mechanism and doesn't have the option of a H-pattern shifter in any case.

Notably, the World Rally Championship has abandoned paddles and mandated manual shifting of the sequential -- so it would be logical for the ATCC to retain this approach of manual shifting. If anything, the busy hand work of rally driving indicates paddles, yet the regulator has chosen to take them away, a big call on the FIA's part!

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Is it still an H pattern gearbox if there are effectively 7 gears, 6 forward and one reverse?

Yes, of course. Even with 8 gears: 7 forward and 1 reverse, it's still a H-pattern.

Porsche 911


Chevrolet Corvette


There would be the potential for the ATCC to go to more modern 7 speeds or 8 speeds AND go to a retro h-pattern at the same time (a delightful blend of contemporaryish and nostaglia, OK not *THAT* contemporary when a real automatic Mustang has 10 speeds). Perhaps Holinger could be commissioned to develop a new 7 or 8 speed h-pattern version of their transaxle?

Why was the Holinger rejected from ATCC tenders for so-called "COTF" in the first place, anyhow? Unwilling to tender? [Previous Holinger transmission noted for insufficient quality so participants were unwilling to continue with the transmission marque!? (Surely not!?)]

The 6-speed sequential:


I wonder why two pieces of the case are machined and the other two pieces are cast?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

All of those suggesting that the technology adopted should be one that requires H-pattern shift and throttle synch are advocating for 1891 technology as the future of Gen 3?

As below, the ATCC is a nostalgia category. Where H-patterns would be odd for a technologically advanced category like Formula One or Super GT with their ultra-high thermal efficiency engines and the like, they seem rather fitting for the ATCC.

Heck, increasingly have an internal combustion engine at all (even it is efficient and mated to a hybrid system) is considered anachronistic, so why not go all in on the retro in the ATCC?

Originally Posted by chavez

I can't believe they are planning on using a steering wheel. So 1898....

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

My issue with this view - I don't see how a H-pattern gearbox makes a 'proper race'. The logical conclusion of this is that anything that is not using a H-pattern is by default not a proper race.

I guess the point is that the ATCC races port-injected naturally aspirated V8s. I.e., the ATCC is a nostalgia category ^, it's not pushing the cutting edge unlike SuperGT or F1.

Instead the ATCC races crude big ol' gas guzzling V8s with dismal thermal efficiency. I.e., it's about nostalgia not contemporary ultra-high thermal efficiency technology as in other categories.

So a nostalgia gearbox of a H-pattern manual would be the most appropriate choice for a nostalgia category.

^ Before someone says that turbos are old tech. There is a lot more to the SuperGT or F1 engines than that. The turbulent jet fuel injection allows for ultra-lean AFR (17+:1) which would normally have an engine exploding. They really push the limits to find maximum thermal efficiency.

I think SuperGT and DTM didn't originally introduce hybrids with the high thermal-efficiency four cylinder engines, but they may choose to introduce them later. They do have a control turbo to reduce costs as they are not completely crazy, however the technology within the cylinders is VERY similar to Formula One AFAIK.

Honda:


Toyota:


Meanwhile Supercars are racing a glorified version of these! There's nothing wrong with that, so why not go all-in on the nostalgia?

Honest Windsor:


Fancy Windsor:


The engines for 2023 are a little more modern, but not by much! While the Ford is at least 4-valve and DOHC, it doesn't have the nice gear-driven cams of the actual racing engines of Toyota and Honda above, or it's Cosworth DFV cousin.

LS3:


So given it's all about nostalgia, why not opt for nostaglic H-patterns? The H-patterns could be 'modernised' as 7-speed or 8-speed forward gear upgrade over the XTrac for a blend of retro and modern. It would be entertaining to see a driver work a 7 or 8 speed h-pattern around a lap. WRC drivers used to have to work the (admittedly 6-speed) H-pattern a LOT to keep up with the short gear ratios, so it would be much like that I imagine. Most amusing!

[Just Do It!]

Originally Posted by Kingair

The good old nuns at our Catholic Primary School had a HQ Belmont with three on the tree, they managed ok.
So surely the pampered bus driver’s in Supercar land can handle a gearbox and a clutch.

Save the gearbox!

Hopefully the HQ was reliable - you'd have been safe with the nuns too

[Casper]

Originally Posted by E.B

Hehehe I guess you mean the 'CIG' locker!

Yep, did a few of those. I doubt many people understand the knock on effect that dumb diff has on the front end and how much it adds to the complexity of it.

[Mattracer]

Sanity prevails… they’re keeping the current gear shift.
Still hoped for non-sequential shifting but hey, at least it’s not paddles.

[GTRMagic]

And… it runs as a sequential shift.. so arguably a double H is the basis.. yet it’s still push-pull to go up-down the box..