[DTM] Why there is no good solution for DTM's dilemma

[S griffin]

I’m not sure about that. DTM didn’t really pick till later and in recent times. It had a good run going, but got too much in the end. The newer DTM has done well, but needs to keep it sustainable for the time being

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

article is total rubish

the most exiting era of DTM was 1988-1990 when the cars they used were even closer to the road cars than the STW cars

The difference is which road cars that DTM was based on during those years, i.e. outrageous homologation-specials a la Ford Sierra RS500 and not 2.0l rep-mobiles like in STW a decade later.

and to highlight the point STW and DTM did compete until 1996 and who has "won" ? DTM then spiraled itself out of existance thanks to astronomic costs, pretty much like recently

Both lost. DTM died from costs, STW from failing to garner an audience that would justify its own ever-rising costs.

The numbers in the article are really telling: According to Braun, STW only had around 600k viewers for their races and that
- on Germany's most-watched station
- as a lead in to the F1 broadcast
- at the height of Schumania, when motosport was much more popular than it is now.

That's just shockingly bad and not particular far above what ADAC GT-Masters gets these days on a much smaller station and at a time when motorsport has basically disappeared from the mainstream. All in all this just shows that Supertouring was just not particularly popular with audiences in Germany. Personally, I loved STW back then - and I still enjoy TCR today, but it's simply unrealistic to expect that such a format will get audience support on a level similar to that attained by DTM.

[S griffin]

Yes, it was a very different formula from now and not much different from the main series now. But both DTM and STW got too much in the end. DTM needed a rethink at the time and STW was good while it lasted. But no one was ready for STW. Shame really, but there we go. Guess it was hard to justify it. Shame they had to rely on others to get anything going

Some series will struggle, just a shame we can’t enough interest to keep them going. DTM needs to keep going though

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by S griffin

DTM needs to keep going though

If it isn't better (especially in terms of gaining an audience at the track and on TV) than ADAC GT, then it doesn't. Nobody needs a DTM that plays second fiddle to another series.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

But both DTM and STW got too much in the end. [...]

Some series will struggle, just a shame we can’t enough interest to keep them going. DTM needs to keep going though

Too much what?

Why keep going if there's no interest?

[Adam43]

I suspect that S Griffin meant it from a personal point of view. If you have liked a series over the years then you can have a desire to see it keep going for that reason alone.

Fair enough.

You don’t have to be contrary in everything and spoil for a fight with every post. Some things can just be accepted at face value.

Let’s leave this one here before it escalates like the was the DTM the DTM tedious nit picking again /mod

[S griffin]

Let’s just keep fingers crossed for the future of DTM. The sooner it’s sorted the better. It has made mistakes in the past. We know the costs got too high in the past.

I just think it wouldn’t be the same without it. I hope to see more from DTM in the future

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Let’s just keep fingers crossed for the future of DTM. The sooner it’s sorted the better. It has made mistakes in the past. We know the costs got too high in the past.

I just think it wouldn’t be the same without it. I hope to see more from DTM in the future

I think that's a difficult thing (costs not escalating) to hope for if a consensus remains wanting heavy manufacturer representation.

IMO, high level manufacturer involvement and reduced costs will remain opposed to each other. This is why, I feel, if DTM is to survive it must change almost beyond recognition. Whether that situation is too far from what we have today is an issue fans may have. I just feel that clinging on to the past (as opposed to acknowledging and celebrating it) is a recipe for failure that seems to be what is in DTM's kitchen at the moment.

[S griffin]

It doesn’t need to much. The problem is it needs to be sustainable.

There is no need for drastic changes. We are not clinging to the past, we are trying to look to the future without going overboard.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

The difference is which road cars that DTM was based on during those years, i.e. outrageous homologation-specials a la Ford Sierra RS500 and not 2.0l rep-mobiles like in STW a decade later.

I still not undertstand how someone really argues faster cars makes for better racing /series

DTM in 1988 - 1989 was really huge, over 40 cars entries were not uncommon , the racing was very close, privateers were still competitive and could get podiums/ wins and the cars still look very much like the road cars

DTM grids in 88





then after 89 they deicided by that flawed logic that faster cars means better racing/series and the reuslt was spiraling costs and privateers gone

by 93 it became essentiualy a class system, the few works cars at front of Alfa . Mercedes and the rest were in a different category , privateers were just grid fillers by now and the cars didn't look like the road cars anymore but became silouttes


it is historically proven already fatster cars doesn't make for better racing/ bigger grids etc


as for STW up until 1996 it was on DSF and from 97-98 it was aired by RTL which was disastous , !!! sprint race were not shown and when it clashed with F1 they would often swtich from the STW race to some stupid C-list celebrarty interview on the F1 grid , it was that bad

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It doesn’t need to much. The problem is it needs to be sustainable.

There is no need for drastic changes. We are not clinging to the past, we are trying to look to the future without going overboard.

I disagree. I think it needs a lot, and the changes do have to be drastic.

The death of DTM was predicted a year ago by Jake Willets.
'However, DTM is dying, and unlike NASCAR in the USA, it’s because of the cars.
The DTM is a pure petrol series. There are no electric turbos, no electric powertrains and any signs of its purpose being eco-friendly are unheard of.'

Nigel Chiu is still of the same opinion 2 weeks ago.
'the reliance on manufacturers and regulations that are unsustainable might just have killed the DTM as we know it.'

Willets offered solutions that I agree with, but they are drastic.
'make the cars more stock.

The DTM could also change the power terrain to make the cars more eco-friendly.

From the creation of TV deals on free to air TV like Formula E and the increased use of social media'

Chiu thinks the series must move to a customer team model.

Both seem to be suggesting changes that supporters struggle to see as necessary.


Links:
https://drivetribe.com/p/the-worrying-future-of-dtm-R1A8CQQST0217RtD5BhxKw?iid=FE3TX2AKTZm641SbWlosGA

https://motorsport.radio/opinion-why-the-dtm-is-dying/

[DS"]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Willets offered solutions that I agree with, but they are drastic.
'make the cars more stock.

The thing is, would the manufacturers really want that? Dented or crashes production cars won't really fit the image the manufacturers - especially the big three in Germany - would want to transport. Especially if it's premium models like the M4, RS5 or C63. And while fixing cars with duct tape has its charm, it may also appear bush league from the outside.


Another problem could be the performance. In such a scenario, the best road car would win. Rightfully so, IMO. However, say the BMW M4 would become the dominant car. This mean a) private teams would have to buy a BMW and b) other manufacturers would simply resort to developing a race car for the road. This would be 1990's GT1 all over again, with rising costs pricing out participants. A solution could be BoP, but I doubt manufacturers would go for that again.

From the creation of TV deals on free to air TV like Formula E and the increased use of social media'

I don't know about the TV deals in other countries, but in Germany DTM has always tried to go for mainstream TV channels. Though they haven't been drawing huge ratings for years. The 2019 average on Sat1 was around 600-700k. It's the same numbers the STW had in their last season on RTL, though arguably streaming and VoD didn't exist yet in 1998.


As for social media: I think DTM does a good job in that department. Maybe they could interact a bit more with their fans, but they're pretty active in general. Showing off their drivers, their history and so on. Maybe they could try to win over new target audiences, but it's easier said than done.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The death of DTM was predicted a year ago by Jake Willets.
'However, DTM is dying, and unlike NASCAR in the USA, it’s because of the cars.
The DTM is a pure petrol series. There are no electric turbos, no electric powertrains and any signs of its purpose being eco-friendly are unheard of.'

I do not know who's that Jake Willets is but I won't be surprised if he had supported some very "eco-friendly" series like late iPace trophy or how that comedy was called. Every championship that tries to take that so called "eco-friendly" on board suffers greatly from that. F1 dropping HERS, KERS is rather limited in LMP1, and it is an absolutely useless ballast for GT. And FE crashfest is a huge-huge marketing toy, not an engineering class at all as they promote it. So, all that electric powertrains and other "eco-friendly" stuff is good for advertising only, not for real life.
Besides, will Audi try to erase from the history all their diesel victories, huh? 10 years ago the same people (Marketing Departments and "journalists") who now acting as Electricity missioners were hailing what appeared to be a "not so clean" engine. Is there a risk for history to repeat itself once again?

[Matt K]

Giving 88-90 DTM as an exemplary solution for DTM's future is not very good. Yes, back then racing was indeed spectacular, grids huge and the product great overall. But remember it was 30 years ago. Going for 'stock' cars wouldn't make it excellent overnight. We have TCR which is somehow closer to production cars (still far away from old A class) and the product is dull.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by DS"

The thing is, would the manufacturers really want that? Dented or crashes production cars won't really fit the image the manufacturers - especially the big three in Germany - would want to transport. Especially if it's premium models like the M4, RS5 or C63. And while fixing cars with duct tape has its charm, it may also appear bush league from the outside.


Another problem could be the performance. In such a scenario, the best road car would win. Rightfully so, IMO. However, say the BMW M4 would become the dominant car. This mean a) private teams would have to buy a BMW and b) other manufacturers would simply resort to developing a race car for the road. This would be 1990's GT1 all over again, with rising costs pricing out participants. A solution could be BoP, but I doubt manufacturers would go for that

This highlights some of the identity crisis DTM has. If the reliance on manufacturers is removed, it doesn't matter if they want it or not.

The dependency on manufacturers is (in part) what is killing the series.

[S griffin]

It could still work though if they toned it down a bit. They need the manufacturers to keep pumping the money in, but musn’t let them take it over. Although I do sympathise with how manufacturer can be dangerous to a series’ health

[DS"]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

This highlights some of the identity crisis DTM has. If the reliance on manufacturers is removed, it doesn't matter if they want it or not.

The dependency on manufacturers is (in part) what is killing the series.

And yet, the general public will only get drawn into a series, if several manufacturers duke it out on the track. DTM is no different than Supercars, the NASCAR Cup Series or SuperGT. Even the BTCC had arguably it's peak in the 1990's, when several manufacturers fielded works entries. After all, Joe Public has more attachment to Audi than Abt Sportsline, unless he drives one of those tuned models by Abt.


Not to mention the marketing effort, manufacturers put into. Not necessarily the oversized hospitality tents, but simply advertising. While sell on monday looks to be increasingly outdated, manufacturers still use racing to advance their overall image. Though there are other ways to do so these days.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by DS"

And yet, the general public will only get drawn into a series, if several manufacturers duke it out on the track.

Increasingly there are many forms of motorsport that the public are drawn into without manufacturers duking it out. The notion that the public are only drawn to a manufacturer battle, if true, surely suggests that many series around the world have no future?

It also leaves the dilemma of - if manufacturers aren't willing to enter your series, how do you survive?

Manufacturers, if they are your only way of drawing in crowds, need a product that fits their goals.

How many mainstream manufacturers (German or European) have a vested interest in the long term future of high performance ICE cars?
Of those, how many see their marketing as being benefited by entering a national series?
Of those, which have models that are eligible for DTM?

If after answering the list of questions you are not able to list at least three that fit the criteria, it must be accepted that relying on manufacturers is a certain route to failure.

Unless, you can change your series sufficiently to meet manufacturers' desires, or to not need manufacturer entries.

Tell me I'm wrong - how can manufacturer entries be relied upon to support DTM in the current automobile market under the current series format?

If BTCC's peak, is viewed as being in the '90s, then it is accepted that a decline followed. That decline was only halted only by adapting from that structure, which is now a 30yr old model of success not relevant today.

[S griffin]

It’s true that other series don’t rely on manufacturers, but I think the thing that draws people to the DTM is seeing the manufacturers battle it out for supremacy

I don’t we need loads of manufacturers, just a few more to keep it going. No doubt we’ve hit a bit of a standstill, but if we can cut costs and make the technical regs more appealing to manufacturers, we’ll see at least a couple more entering.

Of course we aren’t hearing anything at the moment, but who knows, we could suddenly have interest from manufacturers. But at the moment they need to find rules that are appealing to potential manufacturers

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I don’t we need loads of manufacturers, just a few more to keep it going. No doubt we’ve hit a bit of a standstill, but if we can cut costs and make the technical regs more appealing to manufacturers, we’ll see at least a couple more entering.

[...]But at the moment they need to find rules that are appealing to potential manufacturers

If manufacturers are vital to DTM audiences, then I agree with the points you make above.

I just think that the level of cost cutting and amendments to the regs required are too drastic for many DTM supporters to admit as necessary.

[Matt K]

If manufactuturers are sort of essential for DTM and are the part that draws people to it then unfortunately we have to bid DTM farewell. In today's world and with cars that are in DTM, there is not a single chance to see one new manufacturer - and still one wouldn't be enough.
And although I believe manufacturers do really draw people to the DTM (this Mercedes v Audi rivalry in 2000s was iconic), I still want to believe that there is some way to make it more teams oriented with manufacturer input similar to GT or WTCR. But how to make it? I'm running out of ideas and it's not me who decides.

[S griffin]

I don’t think there is any need for defeatism. They just need to make it cheaper and more attractive to would be manufacturers. They only need two or three more to make it complete. Don’t know what could be done with the cars though. They could be changed slightly, without losing it’s DNA

They just need to keep searching for a solution, no point looking in the past that’s over and we were see manufacturers battling it out and teams wanting to run the manufacturers will be signing up.

[uesugi kenshin]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I don’t think there is any need for defeatism. They just need to make it cheaper and more attractive to would be manufacturers. They only need two or three more to make it complete. Don’t know what could be done with the cars though. They could be changed slightly, without losing it’s DNA

They just need to keep searching for a solution, no point looking in the past that’s over and we were see manufacturers battling it out and teams wanting to run the manufacturers will be signing up.

Surely manufacturers building cheaper touring cars, is that not TCR? Can you name any manufacturer that wants to build a DTM car?

[S griffin]

Obviously it's not easy finding manufacturers interested. But DTM needs to have it's own benefits to manufacturers. I am confident the organisers are aware of this and are currently trying to work the rulebook to make it attractive to manufacturers.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Obviously it's not easy finding manufacturers interested. But DTM needs to have it's own benefits to manufacturers. I am confident the organisers are aware of this and are currently trying to work the rulebook to make it attractive to manufacturers.

For DTM's sake, I hope they can find a solution.

Sadly, I feel the wants of the fans are too far opposed to the wants of manufacturers.

Fans seem to want Orange Juice, Manufacturers want milk. If the organisers put a bit of each into the mix, I can't see anyone liking the outcome.