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Old 29 Jan 2022, 07:38 (Ref:4095803)   #476
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So if I’m reading this right, it’s a win win for RBR.

Honda continue to develop (I think but could be wrong that a certain amount of development tokens can be used on the engine until 2025?), run the Honda engines until 2025, RBR can plow all their resources into the 2026 engine.

If so, then that gives RBR an advantage over Merc, Renault, Ferrari who have to juggle current engines with new
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Old 29 Jan 2022, 08:15 (Ref:4095805)   #477
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Originally Posted by ascarracinguk View Post
So if I’m reading this right, it’s a win win for RBR.

Honda continue to develop (I think but could be wrong that a certain amount of development tokens can be used on the engine until 2025?), run the Honda engines until 2025, RBR can plow all their resources into the 2026 engine.

If so, then that gives RBR an advantage over Merc, Renault, Ferrari who have to juggle current engines with new
That’s the way I read it as well.Maybe some Porsche/Audi employees stationed there in the next 4 years.
Either way I doubt it was the best news Toto had today.
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Old 29 Jan 2022, 08:41 (Ref:4095807)   #478
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That’s the way I read it as well.Maybe some Porsche/Audi employees stationed there in the next 4 years.
Either way I doubt it was the best news Toto had today.
Indeed.

I wonder if AMG sets up a new company and comes into F1 in 2026….
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Old 29 Jan 2022, 09:24 (Ref:4095808)   #479
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Indeed.

I wonder if AMG sets up a new company and comes into F1 in 2026….
Cost caps just work so well with big corporations.
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Old 29 Jan 2022, 09:35 (Ref:4095812)   #480
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Cost caps just work so well with big corporations.
Not sure I understand your point
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Old 29 Jan 2022, 10:44 (Ref:4095818)   #481
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Not sure I understand your point
Technically we have cost caps to prevent teams from overspending, and the big and powerful will just subvert them i moves like your AMG suggestion, or RBR possibly using a factory outside the current system for development.
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Old 29 Jan 2022, 10:58 (Ref:4095821)   #482
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I think (as the article mentions) that it will be interesting if the power unit is badged as Honda or RBP.

Richard
It still says RBP on the entry list for now, but I guess that can still be changed:
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formu...pionship-entry

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'Red Bull’s Helmut Marko revealed that the deal for Honda to supply their engines from Japan will continue for the rest of this era.
Honda were going to 'supply' the engines in 2022 anyway, this doesn't yet clarify what the label on the engines is going to be.
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Old 29 Jan 2022, 11:01 (Ref:4095825)   #483
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Indeed.

I wonder if AMG sets up a new company and comes into F1 in 2026….
I’m sure the salary cap will constrain both of them but I guess this means that Red Bull won’t be at disadvantage to Mercedes.
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Old 29 Jan 2022, 11:57 (Ref:4095834)   #484
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Technically we have cost caps to prevent teams from overspending, and the big and powerful will just subvert them i moves like your AMG suggestion, or RBR possibly using a factory outside the current system for development.
Engine development is outside the cost cap IIRC

Bit unfair on the manufacturer teams supplying to customers otherwise!
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Old 29 Jan 2022, 12:06 (Ref:4095835)   #485
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Following what appears to have been said by RBR, it would seem as though there is going to be a separate cost cap for power units, with an extra amount permitted for new PU entrants. Hence the delay by RBR to introduce their own PU, and continuing using the Honda units until the change in regulations in 2025 or '26.
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Old 29 Jan 2022, 13:34 (Ref:4095839)   #486
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And this protects Honda as well allowing them to keep their IP to themselves while requiring RBP and VW/Audi (if they do enter) to work on a new engine on their own?

Or is there where ex Honda head new consultancy firm comes into play?

While this may be a short term advantage for RB, is starting a new engine program sort of from scratch a real advantage? Despite the ability to spend more and take more time developing in isolation, I would have thought continuity in engine evolution to be the bigger advantage…hence why new engine manus are hesitant to enter?

Obvio a lot of speculation on my part, but this seems to be a challenge to the spirit of the rules?
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Old 29 Jan 2022, 17:43 (Ref:4095886)   #487
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And this protects Honda as well allowing them to keep their IP to themselves while requiring RBP and VW/Audi (if they do enter) to work on a new engine on their own?
I think the Honda IP was already protected as it was supposedly licensed to RBP. RBP doesn't own the Honda PU IP so it can't be given or licensed to VAG unless Honda (and other owners) agree to do so.

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Or is there where ex Honda head new consultancy firm comes into play?
I think that is for continuity purposes? But him not moving to RBP might be a strategic decision as well.

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While this may be a short term advantage for RB, is starting a new engine program sort of from scratch a real advantage? Despite the ability to spend more and take more time developing in isolation, I would have thought continuity in engine evolution to be the bigger advantage…hence why new engine manus are hesitant to enter?
There is no real advantage to starting a program from scratch unless there are artificial incentives to do so.

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Obvio a lot of speculation on my part, but this seems to be a challenge to the spirit of the rules?
After thinking about this, I think it actually is. If there will be incentives (I assume financial) being offered to any new PU supplier who jumps into 2026, then why should RBP be penalized for jumping in now as a supplier, but with no real experience? They would fall in a hole of really no (or limited experience) with the current design but also not a new supplier and treated just like Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault in 2026. So they are looking to reverse course and be treated just like VAG or anyone else new to the series.

I think at the end of the day they are just keeping their opinions open. If they tie in with VAG, then this a may be for nothing. However it they don't do a deal with VAG (or anyone else) and do try to build their own in 2026, they will get the same incentives for anyone else starting up new for 2026.

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Old 30 Jan 2022, 05:02 (Ref:4096356)   #488
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Engine development is outside the cost cap IIRC

Bit unfair on the manufacturer teams supplying to customers otherwise!
If Red Bull only uses its engines from 2026, it will benefit from mooted concessions made to ‘new entrants’ with an increased budget cap for those building power units for the first time. It is rumoured Volkswagen group could enter F1 in 2026, with the Red Bull-produced engines featuring the logo of the former’s Porsche brand, with the increased budget cap an incentive to enter the fray.

From: https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...til-2026-marko
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Old 30 Jan 2022, 13:35 (Ref:4096443)   #489
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Cost cap information here:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...jccMseCHO.html
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Old 30 Jan 2022, 20:50 (Ref:4096674)   #490
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Technically we have cost caps to prevent teams from overspending, and the big and powerful will just subvert them i moves like your AMG suggestion, or RBR possibly using a factory outside the current system for development.
As someone already responded. The power unit development is not covered (currently) under costs caps. So if the entity that is financially separate from Mercedes F1 (Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains... which was at one point Illmor Engineering) can spends, billions, trillions or however much they care to spend on R&D (including subcontracting out to whoever they care). Because the regulations doesn't care. All it cares about is that there is a fixed price for the power units as provided to the customers (of which Mercedes F1 is one). And I expect these are sold at a loss and the cost is eaten by the larger parent company (Mercedes, Honda, Renault, Ferrari). Might there be cost caps on R&D on power units in 2026+? Who knows? Maybe? But for now (current power unit spec up to 2025), there is not.

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Quote from that article...

Quote:
The cost of purchasing a customer engine supply deal – which has been capped at €15m per season – as well as flight and hotel costs for race and testing travel do not count.
So that article was a high level one and didn't go into deep details. But what exactly does it mean when they say "15M Euro per season".

1. How many power units do you get? Is it a fixed number or all you can eat?
2. If it is a fixed number how much does extras cost? And is that cost the same for all teams (or customers of a particular power unit)?
3. If you do have to pay for extras what budget does that come from? Is that budget part of the cap or is outside of the capped budget?

A key implication of #3 is that if the "extras" are outside of the capped budget, then that would mean teams with deep pockets can just buy extra power units without any cap issues. And that if that happens, teams that are not able to spend beyond the caps and can't do this, might try harder to take care of their engines (including not turning them up as high as someone like a Mercedes F1, or RBR might do)

So I dug into the Financial Regulations (and this also pushed me into the Sporting Regulations as we will see)

So the Financial Regulations has a section on what is excluded from the cost caps, 3.1 (n) says...

Quote:
All costs of goods and services within the Power Unit Supply Perimeter for use by the F1 Team, up to an amount in any Full Year Reporting Period equal to the applicable maximum price as set out in the Sporting Regulations;
Ok, so basically whatever you spend.. up to the maximum spelled out in the Sporting Regulations is not part of your capped budget. I think this also means, anything BEYOND that maximum is not excluded.

Now why is some of the financial stuff in the Sporting Regulations? Because the power unit stuff was already previously (prior to the new cost caps) capped at a maximum cost.

So in the Sporting Regulations, Appendix 4 (3) says...

Quote:
The power unit supply perimeter listed in Appendix 9A of these Regulations shall be supplied at the maximum price of fifteen million euros. The supply of additional goods or services not listed in Appendix 9A (which shall be agreed between the manufacturer and the Competitor team) shall incur additional charges, the amount of which shall be based on the usages and practices generally recognised and respected in the market for the supply of parts and services in the Championship.
There is more there, but this is the important part and it basically calls out two things...

1. You get whatever is listed in Appendix 9A for 15m Euro
2. Anything else that is not covered in that list is to be agreed upon between the power unit manufacture and the customer, but it should be "reasonable" and "typical" (my words not those of the regulation)

Ok, what is in Appendix 9A? A bunch of stuff, but it's a laundry list of what exactly is provided for the 15M. But in the end, how many power units do you get? The pertinent part of Appendix 9A says...

Quote:
PU and spares for all events in the Championship plus 5000 km testing. Minimum number of PUs per Competitor to be (number of PUs per driver per Championship according to the Sporting Regulations) x 2 + Necessary number of units to achieve 5000 km of testing. Additional PUs or spares required to replace units out of service due to accident damage or other cause induced by the Competitor will be outside the supply perimeter and will incur additional charges
My reading of this is that you get basically just enough to do the season if all goes well, plus some extra to cover testing. Note the allocation is "per team" so it is a per driver allocation times two (two drivers per team). And, the meat of this is the last bit in that if you need extras (new power units, new power unit components beyond what they provide) you pay for them and that is OUTSIDE of the 15M fee. But it also seems to say/imply that you pay if it is due to problems not caused by the power unit manufacture (crash damage, team breaks it on their own, etc.) I assume if it is a clear power unit defect, they might take care of it for you from a money perspective, but the team/driver will still take the penalty hit if/when you go beyond your allocation.

What is my conclusion?

1. If you want to use a fresh engine "just because you want a fresh engine" you have to pay for it.
2. The cost is not spelled out, but it should be reasonable. So I think this means that Mercedes Power Unit can't charge Mercedes F1 1 Euro for a new power unit and then also charge Williams something radically different. But it doesn't say everyone should be charged the same.
3. Any extra units seems to come out of the overall capped budget. So if you are a team that is spending up to your max, then you have to give up something somewhere to make it work. If you are a team that is spending under the cap, it is probably even more painful as you are already stretched thin as it is.
4. Do I think there is a "loophole"? Not really. I do think that assuming teams are charged fairly (and I think those costs will be reported and monitored by the FIA) then it should be pretty fair. As always, a team that has a budget that is less than the cap will have less options in any number of areas including taking a fresh engine and paying for it, just like they can't spend as much in other places as well.

Sorry for this relatively nerdy post. I only spent a few minutes looking at the regulations. I am not an expert, so I could have gotten something wrong somewhere.

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Old 1 Feb 2022, 10:32 (Ref:4096953)   #491
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Is this why Mercedes are so keen on increased electrical energy in the power train come 2025.

Mercedes and Prologium partnership in solid state batteries.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/news...?ocid=msedgntp
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Old 1 Feb 2022, 10:50 (Ref:4096954)   #492
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Is this why Mercedes are so keen on increased electrical energy in the power train come 2025.

Mercedes and Prologium partnership in solid state batteries.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/news...?ocid=msedgntp
I doubt the F1 team is even a factor in this decision and the technology may have little or no relevance to a F1 program anyway.
There is a great feature article in this years Motocourse about all the different types of battery development going on with very different components and materials.Reading that I got the impression that all the balls are still up in the air regarding the most efficient battery technology.
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Old 1 Feb 2022, 11:38 (Ref:4096961)   #493
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I doubt the F1 team is even a factor in this decision and the technology may have little or no relevance to a F1 program anyway.
There is a great feature article in this years Motocourse about all the different types of battery development going on with very different components and materials.Reading that I got the impression that all the balls are still up in the air regarding the most efficient battery technology.
I'd take the advice of an engineer / engineering corporation in the field over a journalist every time.
Anyway pure speculation.
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Old 1 Feb 2022, 12:54 (Ref:4096968)   #494
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Is this why Mercedes are so keen on increased electrical energy in the power train come 2025.

Mercedes and Prologium partnership in solid state batteries.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/news...?ocid=msedgntp
I really haven't followed the positions of the current manufactures regarding what they are or aren't pushing for regarding the 2026 power units. So I have zero clue on Mercedes position.

But given the MGU-H seems to be gone, that means if everything stays the same, the new units will have less capabilities than the current units. So if they want to claw back the losses, then it is either via an increase in the ICE or Kinetic/electric side. It seems unlikely the would increase the displacement of the ICE, so it seems an increase on the electric side would be the logical choice.

As to that article. Given the general desire (driven by the new players such as VAG) for less expensive units in 2026) I doubt anyone wants to support any type of significant arms race on the battery side via bleeding edge storage. Would it be healthy for the sport side of F1 if some teams were able to utilize potentially game changing technology (much higher energy density which would allow for smaller or lighter batteries) that due to IP ownership may not be available to the larger grid? I would not be surprised if they define a cap on battery energy density to prevent exotic, costly and proprietary solutions from being used.

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Old 1 Feb 2022, 17:42 (Ref:4096993)   #495
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There are many manufactures looking into, and investing in, solid state battery technology. Including Toyota, VW and Ford. Energy density and cost, when the tech is established, could improve.
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Old 1 Feb 2022, 18:01 (Ref:4096997)   #496
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Is this why Mercedes are so keen on increased electrical energy in the power train come 2025.

Mercedes and Prologium partnership in solid state batteries.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/news...?ocid=msedgntp
Might matter if MB/FIA was actually a market for the street car battery development. It's not, VERY different discharge and recharge strategies and that make a HUGE difference to the build and engineering.
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