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29 Jan 2022, 07:38 (Ref:4095803) | #476 | ||
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So if I’m reading this right, it’s a win win for RBR.
Honda continue to develop (I think but could be wrong that a certain amount of development tokens can be used on the engine until 2025?), run the Honda engines until 2025, RBR can plow all their resources into the 2026 engine. If so, then that gives RBR an advantage over Merc, Renault, Ferrari who have to juggle current engines with new |
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29 Jan 2022, 08:15 (Ref:4095805) | #477 | |||
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Either way I doubt it was the best news Toto had today. |
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29 Jan 2022, 08:41 (Ref:4095807) | #478 | ||
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29 Jan 2022, 09:24 (Ref:4095808) | #479 | |
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29 Jan 2022, 09:35 (Ref:4095812) | #480 | ||
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29 Jan 2022, 10:44 (Ref:4095818) | #481 | |
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29 Jan 2022, 10:58 (Ref:4095821) | #482 | ||
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https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formu...pionship-entry Honda were going to 'supply' the engines in 2022 anyway, this doesn't yet clarify what the label on the engines is going to be. |
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29 Jan 2022, 11:01 (Ref:4095825) | #483 | ||
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29 Jan 2022, 11:57 (Ref:4095834) | #484 | |||
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Bit unfair on the manufacturer teams supplying to customers otherwise! |
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29 Jan 2022, 12:06 (Ref:4095835) | #485 | ||
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Following what appears to have been said by RBR, it would seem as though there is going to be a separate cost cap for power units, with an extra amount permitted for new PU entrants. Hence the delay by RBR to introduce their own PU, and continuing using the Honda units until the change in regulations in 2025 or '26.
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29 Jan 2022, 13:34 (Ref:4095839) | #486 | ||
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And this protects Honda as well allowing them to keep their IP to themselves while requiring RBP and VW/Audi (if they do enter) to work on a new engine on their own?
Or is there where ex Honda head new consultancy firm comes into play? While this may be a short term advantage for RB, is starting a new engine program sort of from scratch a real advantage? Despite the ability to spend more and take more time developing in isolation, I would have thought continuity in engine evolution to be the bigger advantage…hence why new engine manus are hesitant to enter? Obvio a lot of speculation on my part, but this seems to be a challenge to the spirit of the rules? |
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29 Jan 2022, 17:43 (Ref:4095886) | #487 | |||||
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I think at the end of the day they are just keeping their opinions open. If they tie in with VAG, then this a may be for nothing. However it they don't do a deal with VAG (or anyone else) and do try to build their own in 2026, they will get the same incentives for anyone else starting up new for 2026. Richard |
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30 Jan 2022, 05:02 (Ref:4096356) | #488 | ||
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From: https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...til-2026-marko |
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30 Jan 2022, 13:35 (Ref:4096443) | #489 | ||
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Cost cap information here:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...jccMseCHO.html |
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30 Jan 2022, 20:50 (Ref:4096674) | #490 | |||||||
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1. How many power units do you get? Is it a fixed number or all you can eat? 2. If it is a fixed number how much does extras cost? And is that cost the same for all teams (or customers of a particular power unit)? 3. If you do have to pay for extras what budget does that come from? Is that budget part of the cap or is outside of the capped budget? A key implication of #3 is that if the "extras" are outside of the capped budget, then that would mean teams with deep pockets can just buy extra power units without any cap issues. And that if that happens, teams that are not able to spend beyond the caps and can't do this, might try harder to take care of their engines (including not turning them up as high as someone like a Mercedes F1, or RBR might do) So I dug into the Financial Regulations (and this also pushed me into the Sporting Regulations as we will see) So the Financial Regulations has a section on what is excluded from the cost caps, 3.1 (n) says... Quote:
Now why is some of the financial stuff in the Sporting Regulations? Because the power unit stuff was already previously (prior to the new cost caps) capped at a maximum cost. So in the Sporting Regulations, Appendix 4 (3) says... Quote:
1. You get whatever is listed in Appendix 9A for 15m Euro 2. Anything else that is not covered in that list is to be agreed upon between the power unit manufacture and the customer, but it should be "reasonable" and "typical" (my words not those of the regulation) Ok, what is in Appendix 9A? A bunch of stuff, but it's a laundry list of what exactly is provided for the 15M. But in the end, how many power units do you get? The pertinent part of Appendix 9A says... Quote:
What is my conclusion? 1. If you want to use a fresh engine "just because you want a fresh engine" you have to pay for it. 2. The cost is not spelled out, but it should be reasonable. So I think this means that Mercedes Power Unit can't charge Mercedes F1 1 Euro for a new power unit and then also charge Williams something radically different. But it doesn't say everyone should be charged the same. 3. Any extra units seems to come out of the overall capped budget. So if you are a team that is spending up to your max, then you have to give up something somewhere to make it work. If you are a team that is spending under the cap, it is probably even more painful as you are already stretched thin as it is. 4. Do I think there is a "loophole"? Not really. I do think that assuming teams are charged fairly (and I think those costs will be reported and monitored by the FIA) then it should be pretty fair. As always, a team that has a budget that is less than the cap will have less options in any number of areas including taking a fresh engine and paying for it, just like they can't spend as much in other places as well. Sorry for this relatively nerdy post. I only spent a few minutes looking at the regulations. I am not an expert, so I could have gotten something wrong somewhere. Richard |
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1 Feb 2022, 10:32 (Ref:4096953) | #491 | |
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Is this why Mercedes are so keen on increased electrical energy in the power train come 2025.
Mercedes and Prologium partnership in solid state batteries. https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/news...?ocid=msedgntp |
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1 Feb 2022, 10:50 (Ref:4096954) | #492 | |||
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There is a great feature article in this years Motocourse about all the different types of battery development going on with very different components and materials.Reading that I got the impression that all the balls are still up in the air regarding the most efficient battery technology. |
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1 Feb 2022, 11:38 (Ref:4096961) | #493 | ||
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Anyway pure speculation. |
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1 Feb 2022, 12:54 (Ref:4096968) | #494 | ||
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But given the MGU-H seems to be gone, that means if everything stays the same, the new units will have less capabilities than the current units. So if they want to claw back the losses, then it is either via an increase in the ICE or Kinetic/electric side. It seems unlikely the would increase the displacement of the ICE, so it seems an increase on the electric side would be the logical choice. As to that article. Given the general desire (driven by the new players such as VAG) for less expensive units in 2026) I doubt anyone wants to support any type of significant arms race on the battery side via bleeding edge storage. Would it be healthy for the sport side of F1 if some teams were able to utilize potentially game changing technology (much higher energy density which would allow for smaller or lighter batteries) that due to IP ownership may not be available to the larger grid? I would not be surprised if they define a cap on battery energy density to prevent exotic, costly and proprietary solutions from being used. Richard |
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1 Feb 2022, 17:42 (Ref:4096993) | #495 | ||
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There are many manufactures looking into, and investing in, solid state battery technology. Including Toyota, VW and Ford. Energy density and cost, when the tech is established, could improve.
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1 Feb 2022, 18:01 (Ref:4096997) | #496 | ||
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