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Old 6 Dec 2010, 21:35 (Ref:2800555)   #26
LuiggiSpeed
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Originally Posted by Purist View Post
Without that bottom section, this track really looks like the old Surfers Paradise Raceway.

I think an intimidating circuit is a good thing, and means that the drivers actually respect the place.
I had the opportunity to witness something like that just a month ago, we were racing in Dominican Republic and there's a section of the track that is crazy, a third gear corner with a concrete wall right next to it..you are right, we all respected that section , but in the superbike class, the venezuelan champion Armando Amantini was complaining about the wall, while dominican Waldy Veras raced like if the wall wasn't even there, and there's a big F on the wall already, if you know what I mean.
I had done that too, years ago, I was racing novice in my "home circuit" and there was this corner where you come in 4th gear @100-120MPH and get to within one foot of a wall , us the locals we didn't had no problem, but some others were pointing out at the imminent danger, we raced anyway and we lost a rider to the wall that very day, event that changed me forever, as you already know.
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Old 6 Dec 2010, 21:40 (Ref:2800558)   #27
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Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post
Just as a concession to LuiggiSpeed's comments I have realigned some corners (and straights) and added runoff and sandpits for drivers to play in. Some of the more criticised 'distance' areas have been increased considerably.

Thank you! that looks a bit safer to us motorcycles and all other self sponsored racing enthusiasts!
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Old 6 Dec 2010, 22:49 (Ref:2800597)   #28
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I had the opportunity to witness something like that just a month ago, we were racing in Dominican Republic and there's a section of the track that is crazy, a third gear corner with a concrete wall right next to it..you are right, we all respected that section , but in the superbike class, the venezuelan champion Armando Amantini was complaining about the wall, while dominican Waldy Veras raced like if the wall wasn't even there, and there's a big F on the wall already, if you know what I mean.
I had done that too, years ago, I was racing novice in my "home circuit" and there was this corner where you come in 4th gear @100-120MPH and get to within one foot of a wall , us the locals we didn't had no problem, but some others were pointing out at the imminent danger, we raced anyway and we lost a rider to the wall that very day, event that changed me forever, as you already know.
My brother had a massive off at 120mph on his Ducati many years ago, but ended up in brush and bush bruised from head to toe without breaking anything. My father was a regional hillclimb champ on bikes too and never talks about his accidents. My youngest brother had his share of road accidents on bikes.
I have never been interested in bikes for myself, always preferred karts and cars.
While I have done a little off road trail and trial riding I always thought bikes were much more dangerous....
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Old 6 Dec 2010, 23:23 (Ref:2800615)   #29
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My brother had a massive off at 120mph on his Ducati many years ago, but ended up in brush and bush bruised from head to toe without breaking anything. My father was a regional hillclimb champ on bikes too and never talks about his accidents. My youngest brother had his share of road accidents on bikes.
I have never been interested in bikes for myself, always preferred karts and cars.
While I have done a little off road trail and trial riding I always thought bikes were much more dangerous....
Nice.

Any circuit that can hold motorcycle events is safe enough for cars but the opposite it's not necessarily true, any modern design shall have safety as a paramount
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Old 6 Dec 2010, 23:50 (Ref:2800624)   #30
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Nice.

Any circuit that can hold motorcycle events is safe enough for cars but the opposite it's not necessarily true
I'd agree with the above part of your statement.
The second part is also true, safety should be paramount but how far do you go.
To say it is paramount means it is MOST important, (and it is important, probably one, if not the most important factor), but it is not the ONLY factor.

We could create circuits with 100m of continuous gravel run off around the entire racing surface and hold all pits, spectator areas, etc outside that area....so there would be adequate run off for everybody, cars and bikes, but is that practical and is it the right answer to the question of paramount safety?

Cars can dig into gravel and sommersault horrifically and thus go much further...(especially touring cars-I am thinking of some of the NASCAR and V8 Supercar incidents here).
So while safety is paramount how much of a factor does it make it in consideration. Obviously concrete walls less than 30m backof the track on the exit of corners is dangerous for bikes (depending on the angle of incident and the material between the track and the wall) although some would argue there should be no concrete around bike circuits. Phillip Island is a good example of what a bike should be like but is that the best thing for cars.... and spectators.
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Old 7 Dec 2010, 03:50 (Ref:2800682)   #31
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safety should be paramount but how far do you go.
As far as it takes to prevent potential tragedies. A proper circuit is designed combining all the elements, but safety first, you don't really need 100's of meters of sand everywhere, AMOF in all my designs a certain amount of grass after the asphalt is needed so that the racer has options in case of a small mistake, but someone flying further will be hold by the energy absorbing material, be it gravel or sand or whatever they're using these days.

For the spectators, that's what the infield or stadium sections are for and also like some european tracks, hills around the circuit are a good thing.
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Old 7 Dec 2010, 05:43 (Ref:2800697)   #32
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This would be that incident with Cameron McConville at Philip Island in 2009.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uypk5xkzwZ4

Top speed at the end of that straight is around 175mph (280km/h).
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Old 7 Dec 2010, 07:08 (Ref:2800716)   #33
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As far as it takes to prevent potential tragedies. A proper circuit is designed combining all the elements, but safety first, you don't really need 100's of meters of sand everywhere, AMOF in all my designs a certain amount of grass after the asphalt is needed so that the racer has options in case of a small mistake, but someone flying further will be hold by the energy absorbing material, be it gravel or sand or whatever they're using these days.

For the spectators, that's what the infield or stadium sections are for and also like some european tracks, hills around the circuit are a good thing.
Thats fine. I just wanted to know what the defining elements of 'paramount importance were and 'enough to prevent potential tragedies' is interesting.

If I can forsee a potential situation possibly arising from an on track incident do I need to design the circuit to prevent every one of those things from
a) happening, or
b) anyone being seriously hurt/injured/killed should such a situation occurr.
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Old 7 Dec 2010, 07:11 (Ref:2800718)   #34
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This would be that incident with Cameron McConville at Philip Island in 2009.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uypk5xkzwZ4

Top speed at the end of that straight is around 175mph (280km/h).
Yes.
That is the one...

All the safety traps and fences avoided and fortunately no one injured or hurt.
If he had been a faction of a second earlier or later the consequences could have been much different, and quite tragic.
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Old 7 Dec 2010, 15:23 (Ref:2800938)   #35
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Wow that incident is crazy, where are the protective barriers that should have been there or did everybody thought it was impossible for a car to reach the other side? I rather have a car striking a tire barrier than another car elsewhere on the course, and that's a good 200 m of distance!!!
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Old 7 Dec 2010, 16:05 (Ref:2800969)   #36
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At 0:53-0:54, you can see where the barriers end from the camera shot looking across from the Southern Loop.

Luiggi, you may be right, in that nobody had fathomed that McConville, or anyone else, could do that.

The worst thing may be that a screw-up at the sprint round later in the year could have seen something similar happen again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIfMI...eature=related
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Old 13 Dec 2010, 03:58 (Ref:2803597)   #37
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I have this one to bring to you, based on the Wigram airbase circuit in Christchurch, New Zealand. It is no longer operational nor is it an airbase any more but on google maps I see its still an big expanse of grass, so if it was to be revived this is an idea. I have a few variations too, but I may post those later. 4.19km (2.6 miles, anticlockwise)
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Old 13 Dec 2010, 10:53 (Ref:2803749)   #38
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That one must be a mighty fast one. Very nice one.

The only issue might be the placement of the pitlane - might be better on the other side of the track - and then here we are again with this topic of pitlane-exit position

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Old 13 Dec 2010, 18:02 (Ref:2803951)   #39
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That one must be a mighty fast one. Very nice one.

The only issue might be the placement of the pitlane - might be better on the other side of the track - and then here we are again with this topic of pitlane-exit position

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Hmmm
It is anti-clockwise so coming through the sweepers from the back straight toward the pits you would peel off before the turn onto the start straight and motor down the pit lane, rejoining on the outside of turn one.
If you deliberately had extra run off there will be plenty of space.

How is that a problem?
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Old 13 Dec 2010, 19:46 (Ref:2804006)   #40
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Most of us seem to be agreeing that the best position of the pitlane is usually on the same side that T1 turns - if it goes right, then the pitlane should go on the right side of the track, if it turns left, the pitlane should go left of the track. This all is to avoid the pitlane spitting out the cars on the racing line.

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Old 13 Dec 2010, 22:23 (Ref:2804075)   #41
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Nobody seems to have told the builders of the Smolensk Ring that; so, I guess we'll find out how FIA GT3 goes there next year.

And no, bio, this track won't be exceptionally quick for its length. I'd guess a 2010 LMP1 could go around the place in 1:15 in qualifying, not a 1:08, which would be the equivalent if it was as fast as Road Atlanta or Mosport Park.

Teretonga, this on'es pretty good. I think I may have liked your first one of the thread a little better, but none the less, a good effort. Is it just me, or do I maybe see a bit of Warwick Farm in there along with Wigram?
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Old 14 Dec 2010, 00:01 (Ref:2804115)   #42
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The thing is with pit exits, there are plenty of circuits where for economic or other reasons they don't want to build a road bridge into the centre of the circuit in order to have the pitlane on the inside.

There are a number of tracks which have the pit exit on the outside of T1, Donington in the UK being a prime example, the new Korea circuit though that has it's own issues with the pit entry as well. Montreal has it's pits on the outside and had to be inventive but it could argued that the pit exit is now on the wrong position regarding T3.

It's all a question of taste and where it fits in the real world, and perhaps most importantly is there a "work around" ... Abu Dhabi has an extreme work around in having a tunnel

For fantasy tracks it's perhaps easier just to create a rule of thumb and stick to it, as I have done, and that being as Bio has said the pitlane on the same side as the first corner goes. (I have done a few exceptions but they are based on real world pit exits).
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Old 14 Dec 2010, 00:27 (Ref:2804129)   #43
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That one must be a mighty fast one. Very nice one.

The only issue might be the placement of the pitlane - might be better on the other side of the track - and then here we are again with this topic of pitlane-exit position

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Hmmm
It is anti-clockwise so coming through the sweepers from the back straight toward the pits you would peel off before the turn onto the start straight and motor down the pit lane, rejoining on the outside of turn one.
If you deliberately had extra run off there will be plenty of space.

How is that a problem?
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Most of us seem to be agreeing that the best position of the pitlane is usually on the same side that T1 turns - if it goes right, then the pitlane should go on the right side of the track, if it turns left, the pitlane should go left of the track. This all is to avoid the pitlane spitting out the cars on the racing line.

bio
What bio said.

In the WCS a car missing T1 can clip an entering car, don't ask me how, I can't tell but I can tell you it will happen one day.You'd like to design so that there are no open doors for problems me thinks
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Old 14 Dec 2010, 01:35 (Ref:2804153)   #44
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Thank you everyone.
Now I understand your point about the pit exit but what this concept effectively does is to eliminate any options for a pit straight pit straight that has opposing corners (ie enter one way onto the straight and exit the opposite.

I have always tended to put the pits on the inside of the preceeding turn bcause I always regarded the entry place as being more dangerous than the exit point.
This way the cars entering the pits can come off line and slow without interferring with the cars on the racing line setting up to take the corner.

Where the corner off the straight is in the opposite direction it shouldn't be to difficult to arrange for a build up lane where a car entering the race has enough speed up so it doesn't interfere (much) with a car coming off the corner.
Slower corners off the straight are much easier to handle in this situation than high speed corners for obvious reasons.

I wasn't aware of the convention of thinking many of you have. I take the point that these designs are highly idealistic but I have a very pragmatic streak, and I also look at the cost side of the creation too (maybe its the Scottish blood inside of me), so my designs are drawn with that in mind.
A bridge a' la Yas marina is a ludicrous extravagance for the circuit that is too short for a F1 race and I'd prefer to draw an exit lane that allowed cars to rejoin at speed than dig a huge tunnel underground.
I could move the pits to the other side but that would entail bringing cars off the circuit nearer to the racing line, then feeding thenm around the outside of the turn making them vulnerable to cars spinning or crashing off under brakes and that (in my opinion) is a far more dangerous situation than the one you describe.
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Old 14 Dec 2010, 01:46 (Ref:2804158)   #45
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Nobody seems to have told the builders of the Smolensk Ring that; so, I guess we'll find out how FIA GT3 goes there next year.

And no, bio, this track won't be exceptionally quick for its length. I'd guess a 2010 LMP1 could go around the place in 1:15 in qualifying, not a 1:08, which would be the equivalent if it was as fast as Road Atlanta or Mosport Park.

Teretonga, this on'es pretty good. I think I may have liked your first one of the thread a little better, but none the less, a good effort. Is it just me, or do I maybe see a bit of Warwick Farm in there along with Wigram?
No it has nothing (in my mind) of Warwick Farm but I totally agree with you on the speed. The comparable speeds between Silverstone as it was in the late 60's and Wigram were somewhat slower at Wigram.
So I 'd agree it would be much slower than say Mostport or even Road Atlanta.


My design flows the back straight, the hairpin and the turns leading to the front side in a simalr way. I just moved the pit stright around the left hander and lengthened it running into the centre of the circuit more before turning right and leading back to teh second 'hangar hairpin. After that it is similar again to the original layout allthough the turns are slightly different. I was there in 1973 for a F5000 race and walked the entire infield around the circuit.

There was nothing between me and the cars except a piece of rope on a temporary fenceposts and 30m of parched grass.....
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Old 14 Dec 2010, 12:02 (Ref:2804314)   #46
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Well, the pitlane-issue got a little too much attention (my fault, i guess), so let's not forget that the track itself is great.

And, as many have pointed it out, many real life tracks have the pitlane on the "wrong" side, for various reasons. Insisting on putting the pitlane on the "right" side is a luxury we, "theoretical" designers can afford - if we choose to.

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PS: SBF, now that you mention the pit-exit tunnel at Abu-Dhabi... Cannot help feeling good about this: I applied a very similar tunnel with one of my earlier designs, and it's been frowned upon

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Old 14 Dec 2010, 17:54 (Ref:2804429)   #47
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Well, the pitlane-issue got a little too much attention (my fault, i guess), so let's not forget that the track itself is great.

And, as many have pointed it out, many real life tracks have the pitlane on the "wrong" side, for various reasons. Insisting on putting the pitlane on the "right" side is a luxury we, "theoretical" designers can afford - if we choose to.

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PS: SBF, now that you mention the pit-exit tunnel at Abu-Dhabi... Cannot help feeling good about this: I applied a very similar tunnel with one of my earlier designs, and it's been frowned upon
Well I like your version of the 'Christchurch circuit' bio, even with the underpass.... I think it looks great.
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Old 15 Dec 2010, 01:14 (Ref:2804585)   #48
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I'd just like the thank Bio for posting a link to one of his old circuits, I've just spent the last hour going through that thread again right up to present day.

Geez I really butchered some of his designs. Designs that really there was nothing wrong with. I should almost have created my own thread titled SBF's edits of Bio's designs.

Back on topic.
I wouldn't say that your tunnel tunnel nor Abu Dhabi have been frowned up on, they are feasible work-arounds.

Perhaps Christchurch was just ahead of it's time in having a tunnel. It'll be interesting to see now that it's been done once in the real world whether it'll be used somewhere else.
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Old 15 Dec 2010, 01:43 (Ref:2804588)   #49
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I wouldn't say that your tunnel (...) have been frowned up on, they are feasible work-arounds
Well, it's been called funny, extremely awkward (together with the pit entry) ...

Criticism is a vitial part of this forum. And, as long as they are constructive and provide useful insight and points of view, they are more than useful. Positive and negative feedback alike.

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PS: in retrospect, I like your edit of Christchurch much more than i did back then
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Old 15 Dec 2010, 01:43 (Ref:2804589)   #50
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Thnx, Teratonga!

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