Time for LMP3? - Page 2

Rubinho · 19 Aug 2005, 18:19 (Ref:1386534)

As well as the smaller manufacturers wanting to move up, how about the larger manufacturers wanting more customer cars? Couldn't LMP2 manufacturers make down speced (lighter and with smaller engines) versions of their cars? They could support them themselves or farm that out to a third party. Since the aero regs would be the same as the existing cars they'd be minimal development work which would mainly go into taking the expensive bits out. Seems unlikely but food for thought...

Tim Northcutt · 19 Aug 2005, 18:23 (Ref:1386539)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubinho

As well as the smaller manufacturers wanting to move up, how about the larger manufacturers wanting more customer cars? Couldn't LMP2 manufacturers make down speced (lighter and with smaller engines) versions of their cars? They could support them themselves or farm that out to a third party. Since the aero regs would be the same as the existing cars they'd be minimal development work which would mainly go into taking the expensive bits out. Seems unlikely but food for thought...

Absolutely....

Lola, Riley, Courage, and others want to sell race cars....

and an LMP3 series like this would introduce prospective drivers and teams to their cars....

I believe that they would jump at the chance to do so...

cybersdorf · 19 Aug 2005, 19:42 (Ref:1386597)

Let's have the rulebook formulated, let's see the manufacturers' response to it, let's have some championships where the cars can run, and then I'll join in the euphoria.

Tim Northcutt · 19 Aug 2005, 19:49 (Ref:1386600)

The Britsports Open Sports racer Series has a very good ruleset...

So does the "V de V" Modern Endurance Series...

Both formulas work very well via weight/displacement-horsepower ratios, and provide great racing action...

and believe it or not, a number of manufacturers would find those rules to be to their liking....

there could be minor variations here and there to either one of those rulesets that would serve as an excellent standard for such a Series....

Thus, you wouldn't have to re-invent the wheel....

I can say this with confidence for two reasons:

1. I've done my homework...like every good boy should, and

2. I ask a lot of questions.....there is no such thing as a stupid question if you don't know the answer....

I'll leave it at that...

cybersdorf · 19 Aug 2005, 19:57 (Ref:1386607)

Fine. Let's have a series then, and we'll see how many entrants show up. I will be glad to see the first race, until then - we all have seen too many such plans come to nothing, haven't we.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Thus, you wouldn't have to re-invent the wheel....

No, just build another wheel that turns just as well. As we know it is possible to take an existing, proven concept and f°°° it up beyond recognition.

Again, it would be nice but that doesn't mean it will be. Somebody put a rulebook on the table, and then we'll talk.

Tim Northcutt · 19 Aug 2005, 20:04 (Ref:1386610)

That day may just come your way, cy....

Maybe sooner, maybe later.....

cybersdorf · 19 Aug 2005, 20:14 (Ref:1386615)

Fine! I can't wait!

JAG · 19 Aug 2005, 20:18 (Ref:1386620)

Heres your rulebook.......

Any open/closed protoype that:-

Weighs less than 750KG
Atmo engines 2.5 or under
Turbo engines 1.5 or under

Dozens of chassis are available from bike engined Radicals to Ford V6 powered ProSport 3000's.

Bring them together and let them loose, ala BritCar.

National series require loose regs combined with a race what you bring attitude.

Check out the variety of GT cars we saw in the early years of national GT racing.

Adopting ACO/FIA regs simply descimated fields and increased costs tenfold.

Only when a team/manufactuer is ready to step upto the international scene should they have to adhere to more stringent and costly regs.

cybersdorf · 19 Aug 2005, 20:37 (Ref:1386633)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

Check out the variety of GT cars we saw in the early years of national GT racing.

And check out what they turned into within a matter of two or three seasons!

Quote:

Only when a team/manufactuer is ready to step upto the international scene should they have to adhere to more stringent and costly regs.

Ah but as we have established, lots of them are!

JAG · 19 Aug 2005, 21:30 (Ref:1386665)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

And check out what they turned into within a matter of two or three seasons!

That was on the international scene.

Nationally we lost cars like the Renault Spider GT1, 935s, Marcos, De Tomaso's etc. and where left with a field of 911 GT3s/360s.

There isn't the budget or need to build expensive specials just to compete on the national scene.

Fab · 20 Aug 2005, 05:50 (Ref:1386782)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubinho

I just finished reading an interesting article in Racecar Engineering called Time for LMP3?.

Sam' gonna love this thread

Sorry for that, Rubinho

A special one for our tech nuts, keep on mates !

Nordic · 20 Aug 2005, 07:43 (Ref:1386820)

Maybe its also time for some tough love, kill off all the struggling series that can't field more than 15 cars. Have a worldwide set of LMP3 rules for national series that maybe lead to a world final with worthwhile prize money.

Below the LMP3, strenghen the Clubmans type series that already florish to try and generate a ladder for both teams and drivers.

The same principle could be used for GT1 & GT2 at international level, GT3 at national

What is certain, to me at least, if LMP3 was introduced into what is already a crowed scene, it will still futher dilute to driver and team gene pool unless space is made for it.

Quote:

There isn't the budget or need to build expensive specials just to compete on the national scene.

If history has taught us nothing else, it is that teams want to win, so in most situations the team with the biggest budget/richest driver will win, if that means building expensive specials, then that is what happens and we lose the cars that can't cut anymore, like the De Tomasa, Marcos etc.

ss_collins · 20 Aug 2005, 09:25 (Ref:1386849)

Let me just point out that LMP3 would replace BritSports and VdeV or become the top class within them, whilst still not preventing any car from competing in it. BritSports gets grids of up to 40 cars all which would pretty much fall into the LMP3 rules proposed - same with VdeV. Our Austrian friend has clearly not seen either of these series in action otherwise he would realise that there are probably 25 manufacturers in europe and 10 in the USA that this would work for.

cybersdorf · 20 Aug 2005, 11:59 (Ref:1386917)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Let me just point out that LMP3 would replace BritSports and VdeV or become the top class within them, whilst still not preventing any car from competing in it. BritSports gets grids of up to 40 cars all which would pretty much fall into the LMP3 rules proposed - same with VdeV. Our Austrian friend has clearly not seen either of these series in action otherwise he would realise that there are probably 25 manufacturers in europe and 10 in the USA that this would work for.

Your Austrian friend works for one of these series. (to clarify: not for Britsports or VdeV, but for "one of these series he has never seen").
A nice horse you've got there, and so high.
LMP3 rules proposed - which are these?
There are a number of manufacturers the current LMP1/2 regs could work for. Same for the current CN regs. Same for the current GT regulations. All you ever see is the usual suspects, and there will be a reason for that.

The Badger · 20 Aug 2005, 12:02 (Ref:1386922)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Why not do it as an ALMS Support Series...

Exactly ..... support series or national series . As a stepping stone to the bigger classes . I certainly dont want to see LMP3 cars racing with LMP1 and LMP2 . Next we will have GT3 as well !!!

cybersdorf · 20 Aug 2005, 12:03 (Ref:1386923)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Badger

Exactly ..... support series or national series . As a stepping stone to the bigger classes . I certainly dont want to see LMP3 cars racing with LMP1 and LMP2 . Next we will have GT3 as well !!!

In FIA-GT, we will. Don't forget where the current GT2 cars came from.

Spiteful · 20 Aug 2005, 15:43 (Ref:1387025)

edit: sorry double post

Spiteful · 20 Aug 2005, 15:47 (Ref:1387028)

I'm not very well informed about the subject, but it seems to me lmp3 rules should stick close to what we have now in britsports, vdev etc. Certainly not adapted lmp2s. Costs should be kept low. I think the main benefit of this will be unified rules, so that sportscar manufacturers and teams and drivers with proto interests from around the globe can compete in a fair and professional manner. (I don't mean a global championship offcourse, travelling around North America in support of the ALMS would be hard enough for small teams I imagine)
And certainly don't let them run in the same races as the bigger lmps and gts, or worse, replace gt2! Support races should be fine, that might be a support race I actually watch...
I see little problems with the current four class system, although the rules for the gt classes could be better layed out imo.

cybersdorf · 20 Aug 2005, 17:54 (Ref:1387070)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiteful

I'm not very well informed about the subject, but it seems to me lmp3 rules should stick close to what we have now in britsports, vdev etc. Certainly not adapted lmp2s.

On the other hand, why not allow the older, "pre-hybrid" LMP675 chassis in? With smaller engines of course. Performance-wise, they would fit in; and these cars exist, with no place to compete at the moment.

ss_collins · 22 Aug 2005, 16:05 (Ref:1388499)

If you fit a smaller engine into a 675 then why not.

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