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Old 6 Jun 2019, 16:08 (Ref:3908299)   #2131
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Originally Posted by Mike E View Post
The 11 vs 10 lap restrictions, and the related per stint fuel allocations, while utterly repellent to any right minded race fan, are doing the non-hybrids a massive favour.
Yeah, but this is the problem. They're doing them a favour that means nothing. They are keeping them away from the hybrids anyway. So there's a lot of posturing and "balancing" going on, to achieve the exact same result anyway. They are not being honest in what they say they are doing, and actions they take.

If you're balancing them, then balance them. If you're not, then you're not. There are valid arguments for both approaches. The current approach is pretending they are balancing them, pretending it's all fine, and then at the last minute saying "nah just kidding, we'll make sure there's a gap".

It's the same with the new regulations. They were worried nobody was signing up so kept changing it. But now it's changed so much that nobody is signing up because nobody knows what it is anymore. Pick something and commit to it properly.
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Old 6 Jun 2019, 16:18 (Ref:3908300)   #2132
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Originally Posted by Mike E View Post
The 11 vs 10 lap restrictions, and the related per stint fuel allocations, while utterly repellent to any right minded race fan, are doing the non-hybrids a massive favour.
No ... it is ensuring a hybrid victory.

The regs allow one car to have twice the hp (approximately,) only some of which uses petrol, so a straight-up equal fuel allocation would effectively ignore that huge advantage ... not a level playing field.

The 11- versus ten-lap stint length Combined with the rest of the regs Still ensures (and is intended to ensure) a P1-H victory ... why else set the limit there? if true parity between the two cars was the intention, maybe fuel allocation should be set by relative total horsepower? Adding weight based on the car's' qualifying speeds?

The fact seems to be, that the two classes are radically different and balancing them would be ridiculously hard ... and FIA-ACO does not Want to balance them anyway.

If the regs allowed each car the same amount of fuel ... that would not be "equal," because of the electric hybrid system. Even trying to match lap times wouldn't work, because the hybrids can get out of corners so quickly ....

That is why the 11-10 ration is so insulting ... the hybrids already have Every possible advantage ... and with no lap limits still. no one would expect anyone except Toyota to take the top two places, barring accidents. Toyota can dial back their engine power in favor of reliability and still pretty much have the guaranteed ability to overtake any car on the track.

The 11-10 ratio gives the hybrids one more advantage on top of every other. If ACO had simply not bothered, Toyota would have pretty much exactlyt he same chance to win, and no one would bother being outraged ... but by e3stablishing the 11/10 ratio, FIA_ACo is jus highlighting exactly how much they are doing to ensure that Toyota is rewarded with another Le Mans win ... and could it, just possibly, just at the outside edge of imagination, be because FIA-ACO Really wants Toyota to come back to support the next set of regs? Just maybe?

The best dirty politics happens behind the scenes. This is blatant, in-your-face favoritism ... but whatever. No matter how much we don't like it, we all know what we will be watching when the green flag waves.
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Old 6 Jun 2019, 17:08 (Ref:3908307)   #2133
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I essentially agree with all of that. The 11 vs 10 lap thing is driven by the max fuel allocation which is itself pretty arbitrary. I realise the hybrids are being given another stick with which to beat the non-hybrids. What I meant was that without that limit the hybrids would be even further ahead.
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Old 6 Jun 2019, 18:11 (Ref:3908323)   #2134
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Lotterer's eye view.

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...mpression=true
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Old 6 Jun 2019, 18:20 (Ref:3908325)   #2135
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"Itís difficult to balance performance over multiple hours between us and Toyota because the hybrids have four-wheel drive and they have an enormous advantage in traffic. Itís pretty much mission impossible to try and equalise that.Ē
Thank you very much.
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Old 6 Jun 2019, 18:38 (Ref:3908327)   #2136
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Originally Posted by Chiana View Post
https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1...-lmp1-equality

"The gap between us and the others will become closer, especially with SMP I think," Toyota team boss Rob Leupen said.
"Also Rebellion, they are not that far away as they have been last year."
"For me last year it was more about reliability, I don't think you can expect to win Le Mans after a few months with a new car.
"We have seen how difficult it was to win after a few years with a car which has been developed."
"The [privateers] can use more fuel per lap.
"They have the potential to have a lot higher downforce, so they are better in traffic and in the corners. We've not seen it at Spa, but they should have [higher top speeds].
"We should be able to be quicker than them on one lap, but [the difference should be] very tiny.
"With all these compromises we have seen on the EoT side, they will have to come closer."


Sssssssssssssssssuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure

I especially like the lines "compromises" (compromises they could veto) and "they will have to come closer". Why will they have to come closer?

Nonhybrids being "better in traffic and corners" also makes no sense to me, other than in PR excuses sense
He's speaking about Le Mans in specific, not the wec races/tracks. At Le Mans, the hybrid Toyota has is the least advantaged of any place they race. 8mj for 13.6+km vs somewhere like Spa where it's over 6mj for 7km.

I think by compromise he means running only 11 laps per stint vs 13 almost 14 laps in 2017. They could have left it like that and the private teams would need a tank 1.5 times the size they have now, which would slow them down even further because of the fuel weight. Also running 880kg while some private cars are 815kg. Smaller front and rear wings/diveplanes. Much less engine power. Finalized bodykits vs updated whenever they homologate for the privateers, the list continues. Toyota already had a huge advantage but they've stopped developing the aero. The only thing they can do is get more familiar with the car and go from there. Yeah they have a hybrid that is much more efficient, but in reality the non-hybrids are lucky to even have only a 1-lap disadvantage.

I don't see anything wrong with his points. I like Toyota, they're my favorite team/manufacturer but I'm not blinded by my like for them. I can see what he's saying and agree with 90% of it. The things I don't like are mandated stint lengths. They need to protect their interests, every manufacturer would even if we don't like it. It's something we'll have to live with until 2021's edition I guess. It makes me wish one of the private teams just used a mild hybrid and argued for more favorable eot in the 2mj or 4mj 'class'.
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Old 6 Jun 2019, 20:26 (Ref:3908350)   #2137
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Originally Posted by Mike E View Post
I essentially agree with all of that. The 11 vs 10 lap thing is driven by the max fuel allocation which is itself pretty arbitrary. I realise the hybrids are being given another stick with which to beat the non-hybrids. What I meant was that without that limit the hybrids would be even further ahead.
I agree .... but everything about the regs is arbitrary from min/max dimensions to weight to fuel capacity ..... if Just the fuel tank size were equalized, yeah ... the hybrids would be a lot further ahead.
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Old 7 Jun 2019, 01:22 (Ref:3908379)   #2138
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Interesting thoughts Mike. So the mandated stint lengths give Toyota 1 lap advantage per stint. The fuel tank size difference gives the privateers a 6 lap advantage (or Toyota a 6 lap disadvantage).

You could do a similar thought process for the minimum weight rule give. It would be slightly different, but you could apply the same principle.

FWIW I am technically against both, but I get why for both.

And another point. 9mpg. Wow. I get 7-8 mpg for my race car, for an average lap speed of 75-80mph depending on circuit. Albeit with pushrods!
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Old 7 Jun 2019, 07:48 (Ref:3908408)   #2139
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I think fuel rules is easier and fairer at balancing performance than the weight penalty which hasn't gone far enough. It's something for the organisers to think about during the off season
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Old 7 Jun 2019, 09:54 (Ref:3908426)   #2140
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So maybe they should allow Toyota even less fuel per stint (ca 32kg), so they can only run 10 laps like the non-hybrids. Toyota and ACO reportedly want to show the advantage of the hybrid, and this is only one lap whereas as was pointed here they could do 14 in 2016 and 2017, and could do even more with the same amount of fuel as the NH LMP1. With even less fuel and 10 lap stints Toyota could at least say we use even less to go the same distance as NH.
But we all know that they just want to have as big advantage as they can at LM, so that in case of trouble they have something like 40 min (10 laps) cushion over the race distance to make it up. So we have what we have.
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Old 7 Jun 2019, 13:06 (Ref:3908453)   #2141
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Yes, that would give Toyota an advantage in refuelling time to reflect the efficiency of the hybrid while not beating the non-hybrids with a big stick.
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Old 10 Jun 2019, 09:36 (Ref:3909019)   #2142
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As it is, Toyota has the advantage and for all the effort that has put in their car, they should, since it's the fastest thing from raw physics stand point.

Equalising them without any advantage would result in Toyota exit, no other way. Equalising them to a point where a mechanical error and repair of about 30 minutes costs them victory is IMO a fair equalisation.

The only fair way to Equalise further would be even lower weight allowance for privateers.
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Old 10 Jun 2019, 12:13 (Ref:3909049)   #2143
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The only fair way to Equalise further would be even lower weight allowance for privateers.
How much weight do they carry as ballast though? I'd hate to see the cars get more expensive just to make a slightly lighter chassis, suspension, etc
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Old 11 Jun 2019, 19:03 (Ref:3909435)   #2144
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How much weight do they carry as ballast though? I'd hate to see the cars get more expensive just to make a slightly lighter chassis, suspension, etc
I think they could get away with another 20-30kg according to what Rebellion's manager was saying in a recent interview. So ~800kg would probably be the limit. I think they have to keep a little ballast for ideal weight distribution but not 100% on that.
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