NZTC 2015/2016

[pukekoheracer]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Foggy out for good. These nut bars at MSNZ need their heads checked. Also the fudged restart for race 2.....pfft

That also goes after MSNZ Took James Webbs licence at Taupo for 6 Months.

[promax]

Originally Posted by CDM

Totally agree.

Only heard rumours about what happened & I have no idea why, but if he did in fact line up some officials & then took off doing a burnout towards them, that is totally unacceptable. Without said officials none of us can race!!

Also skim read somewhere that part of his beef was from last years V8ST rules?? (maybe that's why O Evans is mentioned above?) well that just extra lunacy. Foggy is a good competitor & personality but this kind of red-mist isn't good for the sport.

I heard two pieces of motorsport news on the radio this a.m., one was about Paddon's WRC podium & the other was Fogg trying to run down MSNZ officials, so not great for motorsport in the eyes of the public!

The team's major sponsor coming out and trying to blame others for the incident(s) was hardly a good look either. If they weren't happy with the direction of the class.. we'll that's fair enough.. they are entitled to their own opinion. But to try and defend your driver's action by pointing the finger at the class or officials.. is just bloody silly. Everyone has bad days.. it doesn't mean you can take the law into your own hands when things don't go your way.

[promax]

Originally Posted by superstock

missed it bugger ..to hot for me 32 degrees

but I found the meeting ordinary ...left early

wheres all the promised v8s , around 12 f5000

did no one know there what a race meeting on

Wasn't there only 2 class 1 cars missing.. out of the drivers meant to doing the full season? Hughes out with engine issues and Taylor concentrating on GT3.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

My beef with them was the stuff up on the restart with race 2. The rules were clear around who controlled the pace at the green light, and that its a single file. How can another car magically appear to be door to door when the light goes out? We had video evidence of it, which got chucked out, so the boys got data from both cars and it clearly showed that car 4 had a 10 kph advantage and hit the gas pedal earlier than car 022. So with multiple trips to the heads at the top with evidence that could not be denied, they still went with their original decision. At one point one gentleman from MSNZ actually agreed in principle that car 4 got the jump, but shrugged his shoulders and told us it was clear 022 was in the right, but there was nothing he or others could do about it. This cost a potential race win for 022, which could of lead to a round win. 022 was never in the championship anyway, but the rules are the rules, and its a bit of a slap in the face when the people who police them either a) don't understand the rule itself, or b) won't have the proverbial to do anything about it.

....LOL!

I can understand your beef but I have to ask you "Did you follow all the processes available to you?" If not why not?

First thing is did you complete and file an Enquiry form within 30 minutes of the conclusion of the race. If the answer is no then your problem starts right there.

If the answer is yes you did that then you will have received that form back with a written answer. You will also have recorded the time of day when that notice was received. From there you have 60 minutes to lodge with the Stewards of the meeting a protest form detailing the item/s - rules - actions that you protesting, eg, the decision of the Race Director re decision # ???. So then the next question is, did you lodge a protest against the decision contained in your returned Enquiry form?

If however you did not lodge an enquiry form as required by the Championship Articles, or you were bringing then additional information once the original decision had been posted then it was just idle chat you were having with people.

Remember by following due process to get to bring your case in front of the correct person who can make a decision. One does not have to agree with the decision of the Race Director, it can be protested. even then, if the decision of the Stewards is not in your favour and you still genuinely believe that an injustice has been done and rules not complied with you have the ability to seek a Motorsport NZ Enquiry and even then, if this does not work out your way you have the ability to go to the Court of Appeal.

What we need to remember is that once the Race Director / Clerk of the Course has made a written decision that they are unable to withdraw it even if subsequent information proves that their decision was incorrect, The Stewards however can revoke that decision but again only after following due process which in your case would require you to lodge an official protest against the Race Directors decision

In real terms, multiple trips to chat up the guys looking at video footage is as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle for they can not change anyone's decision. Due process has to be followed to achieve that.

Hope that this helps you understand why sometimes things as not as simple as one may think.

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

I can understand your beef but I have to ask you "Did you follow all the processes available to you?" If not why not?

First thing is did you complete and file an Enquiry form within 30 minutes of the conclusion of the race. If the answer is no then your problem starts right there.

If the answer is yes you did that then you will have received that form back with a written answer. You will also have recorded the time of day when that notice was received. From there you have 60 minutes to lodge with the Stewards of the meeting a protest form detailing the item/s - rules - actions that you protesting, eg, the decision of the Race Director re decision # ???. So then the next question is, did you lodge a protest against the decision contained in your returned Enquiry form?

If however you did not lodge an enquiry form as required by the Championship Articles, or you were bringing then additional information once the original decision had been posted then it was just idle chat you were having with people.

Remember by following due process to get to bring your case in front of the correct person who can make a decision. One does not have to agree with the decision of the Race Director, it can be protested. even then, if the decision of the Stewards is not in your favour and you still genuinely believe that an injustice has been done and rules not complied with you have the ability to seek a Motorsport NZ Enquiry and even then, if this does not work out your way you have the ability to go to the Court of Appeal.

What we need to remember is that once the Race Director / Clerk of the Course has made a written decision that they are unable to withdraw it even if subsequent information proves that their decision was incorrect, The Stewards however can revoke that decision but again only after following due process which in your case would require you to lodge an official protest against the Race Directors decision

In real terms, multiple trips to chat up the guys looking at video footage is as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle for they can not change anyone's decision. Due process has to be followed to achieve that.

Hope that this helps you understand why sometimes things as not as simple as one may think.

Thanks Carl. In short, the team followed the correct procedures and lodged the issue in the allocated time frame. The form came back in under 30 mins from the initial lodging. The form said nothing was wrong ra de rah. Our team leader then advised the CRO who gave us the form, that we wanted to take it further and that we had evidence to prove our case. Within minutes of that happening someone from MSNZ came down to talk with our team leader and the driver. Our team leader highlighted the areas of the rule he was contesting, and in all fairness agreed with what the team leader and driver said. However by the time data traces were extracted from the 2 cars, time was running out. Our team leader and driver spent some time upstairs with the data info and video footage (oddly enough, they told us they had no video footage). My understanding is that by the time all of this was presented to the officials, time had run out, and that was that. I believe it took an age to get the data out - which in my view should have been the first thing the Officials should have done.
The team followed protocol by the book, but it seemed that this was low priority and with all the too-ing and fro-ing,time simply ran out.
The team had a genuine point, protested accordingly, followed the guidelines and I guess the saying That's Motorsport fits nicely here.
Because 022 is not a championship contender, it was decided to take it on the chin and move on. 022 drove a great race 3 and won it comfortably and did a stunning pass on car 4 at the exit of splash.
Hope that clarifies things further and thanks for the informative post.

[Barry Neale]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

(oddly enough, they told us they had no video footage).

Ignoring the procedural dramas, which will all know are at times hard work, and just concentrate on the fact. (disclosure: We would have benefited from any penalty given to the #4 )

There was video, which was seen, and does show it as a restart that conformed to the restart rules.

The rule is very clear and essentially the only argument that can be put forward is that the #4 didn't do the following.

Cars are to maintain single file, line astern order until the start signal is given.

Here are 4 frames from the an on board of the restart.

1st you can see the Yellow on.
2nd the lights are mostly obscured by the #4 wing.
3rd the lights are now green and can been seen under the #4 wing.
4th #4 moves out from behind to over take.


http://postimg.org/image/3nax6qc0x/

He may have been traveling 10kph faster, but it's entirely irrelevant because it doesn't break the rule.

I'm all for questioning decisions when it appears that officials have not followed or applied consistently their own rules, but it's not the case here, you'd be hard pressed to get any other ruling that it was as per the schedule.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by Barry Neale

Ignoring the procedural dramas, which will all know are at times hard work, and just concentrate on the fact. (disclosure: We would have benefited from any penalty given to the #4 )

There was video, which was seen, and does show it as a restart that conformed to the restart rules.

The rule is very clear and essentially the only argument that can be put forward is that the #4 didn't do the following.

Cars are to maintain single file, line astern order until the start signal is given.

Here are 4 frames from the an on board of the restart.

1st you can see the Yellow on.
2nd the lights are mostly obscured by the #4 wing.
3rd the lights are now green and can been seen under the #4 wing.
4th #4 moves out from behind to over take.


http://postimg.org/image/3nax6qc0x/

He may have been traveling 10kph faster, but it's entirely irrelevant because it doesn't break the rule.

I'm all for questioning decisions when it appears that officials have not followed or applied consistently their own rules, but it's not the case here, you'd be hard pressed to get any other ruling that it was as per the schedule.

Game set and match right there.

[BackSeat Driver]

Originally Posted by Barry Neale

Ignoring the procedural dramas, which will all know are at times hard work, and just concentrate on the fact. (disclosure: We would have benefited from any penalty given to the #4 )

There was video, which was seen, and does show it as a restart that conformed to the restart rules.

The rule is very clear and essentially the only argument that can be put forward is that the #4 didn't do the following.

Cars are to maintain single file, line astern order until the start signal is given.

Here are 4 frames from the an on board of the restart.

1st you can see the Yellow on.
2nd the lights are mostly obscured by the #4 wing.
3rd the lights are now green and can been seen under the #4 wing.
4th #4 moves out from behind to over take.


http://postimg.org/image/3nax6qc0x/

He may have been traveling 10kph faster, but it's entirely irrelevant because it doesn't break the rule.

I'm all for questioning decisions when it appears that officials have not followed or applied consistently their own rules, but it's not the case here, you'd be hard pressed to get any other ruling that it was as per the schedule.

Only thing missing from those 4 pictures was a big neon sign on the back of 022 with an arrow saying <- SIUCIDE PASSING SIDE ->

[EVORACER11]

Have been reading on facebook the safety car in R2 was a set up? is this true? why was safety car even brought out??

[promax]

A setup for what?

[CDM]

Originally Posted by promax

A setup for what?

For when races are so freaking boring they need to put out a "strategic safety car" to make it slightly interesting again

[Goat Boy]

I hope such things don't actually happen...

[promax]

Wasn't the TKR parked at side of the track?

[NZSTfan]

Firstly, thanks to Barry for the images and your take on the restart. I take it that was shot from Bargs car.

022 video footage on the other hand was a bit more comprehensive because it was the 2 leading cars that are in question here.

The footage showed the green light going out and the driver of 022 immediately hit the gas. At the same time this happened, you could see car 4 virtually door to door with 022. Also the data traces matched this view i.e. car 4 got a slight jump.

We could go round in circles with this, but I will state that our engineer and crew chief have been doing this for a while and knew the rule inside out. That is what they protested. If car 022 had fluffed the start then so be it, but the data and video matched. So it is what it is I guess.

But I thank Barry for his input here. His angles indeed make it look ok. Our angle doesn't. Oh the joys of motorsport!

The 'fake' safety car was something that people talked about, but is probably something from nothing.

The TKR car was beached at the hairpin and I recall a local yellow for that corner based on the lights. A Few laps later the full yellow came out and the rest is history.

However, the final ute race did have an odd safety car. Booth had contact with Ward at the exit of T1, which caused damage to Booths ute. Booth pulled into the slip road and the race carried on. The leaders were miles ahead and then the circuit went full yellow. Booths car was not retrieved and the ute guys seemed to think it was called to bunch the field to make it more exciting. Whether that is true or not is not for people like me to question. But that was how that race panned out and you can read what you want in to it. I was told by an experienced ute campaigner that this had happened before.

[CDM]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

I hope such things don't actually happen...

NZV8 Utes used to do it all the time

[EVORACER11]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

The TKR car was beached at the hairpin and I recall a local yellow for that corner based on the lights. A Few laps later the full yellow came out and the rest is history.
.

was this another engine failed? or driver error? seems to be TKR and Ross always have car issues, the most out of all the teams yet!

[promax]

Shouldn't you know the answer to your own question evo? What was said on facebook

[promax]

Evo are you involved with one of these amateur media pages popping up on facebook.?

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by promax

Shouldn't you know the answer to your own question evo? What was said on facebook

Please share with us PM

[promax]

I don't have anything to share about what was discussed on facebook.. as I wasn't a part of it It probably would've made more sense for evo to ask his question on facebook.. unless he was on here fishing for a different answer. Of course i could be very wrong.. and it could've been a genuine question asked by evo. I'm just tired of all the conspiracy theories involved touring car racing in this country. Can't people just go racing and enjoying racing because it's racing. The drama side of it is just too much for me

[EVORACER11]

Sorry Promax, it was only a genuine question as I read on Facebook that the safety car might have been not legit, I was only asking because people on here seem to have more of a idea on what's going on rather then the amateur media pages.

[promax]

No need to be sorry evo.. the mistake was on my part

[NZSTfan]

Just had a thought: The mid April finale at Puke is going to be missing some significant competitors/cars due to a clash with Philip Island.

My count is:
Heimgartner - LDM
Bargwanna - DSO
Evans - DVS
Fogg - not in it anymore

So I think that leaves (happy to be corrected):
Edgell
Cunningham
Ross
Hughes (though I hear he is prepping his car for endurance events)
Alexander

Could be a measly showing unless some ST's come out of the woodwork, but why would they? championship is already won.

Maybe some would see it as a 'test' type weekend if they intend to compete next season, but this last round could just be a flop....

[bluespur]

If any additional cars were going to come out they already would have done so.

I think the whole exercise is a flop.

I am over this class that appears to be very self interested with overinflated egos.

Time to move on......perhaps a move to 2l touring cars because what we have currently is simply not working

[Goat Boy]

I did see a "stealth" FG on a trailer the other day, it was matte black with no markings but had what appeared to be an ST wing on the rear. Not sure what to make of that but it would be nice if it came out to race. Wonder if it was Foggy's old car?