Safer working under Yellow Flags?

[johnw]

Forgive me if any of the following is wrong, or unworkable. I’m interested in your experienced views.

As a driver, my first bash at flag marshalling at Donington a couple of weeks ago, caused me to think about the problem of drivers failing to sufficiently slow under yellows at the scene of an incident.

The basic rule of a green at the post following the scene of an incident seems reasonable enough. However, there is a problem, which increases, the closer the incident marshals are to the “green” post.

In order to gain an advantage, or protect their position, drivers will be looking for and anticipating the green flag, and accelerating towards it, possibly whilst still having to pass the incident itself.

If the post following the incident showed a stationary yellow, there would be no point in doing so. The lead driver could reduce speed significantly, certain in the knowledge that he couldn’t be “jumped” until the next post. The “winding up” could begin after the incident site rather than through it.
Would it work?

John

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by johnw
Forgive me if any of the following is wrong, or unworkable. I’m interested in your experienced views.

As a driver, my first bash at flag marshalling at Donington a couple of weeks ago, caused me to think about the problem of drivers failing to sufficiently slow under yellows at the scene of an incident.

The basic rule of a green at the post following the scene of an incident seems reasonable enough. However, there is a problem, which increases, the closer the incident marshals are to the “green” post.

In order to gain an advantage, or protect their position, drivers will be looking for and anticipating the green flag, and accelerating towards it, possibly whilst still having to pass the incident itself.

If the post following the incident showed a stationary yellow, there would be no point in doing so. The lead driver could reduce speed significantly, certain in the knowledge that he couldn’t be “jumped” until the next post. The “winding up” could begin after the incident site rather than through it.
Would it work? John

John I really don't see what the problem is. When there is an incident being covered by yellow flags it is usually plain for all to see on the first pass. Its common sense, if you are in the yellow zone, be alert and ever watchful for squishy hard working marshallmellows!

Be aware on the second and subsequent passes that things may have changed (recovery vehicles, ambulances etc).

Once past the incident, increase to a speed you feel is safe without causing you to shoot past a slower car. Hit the green and its on again - go for it!!

[brickkicker]

Its common sense

Do drivers have that???

[johnw]

Evidently not brickkicker - hence my thought

[johnw]

275 GTB4
The problem is that marshals feel that speeds are not reduced sufficiently for them to feel safe working on track.

Whilst I agree with the sentiments in your first para, it's not always like that.

[B]Once past the incident, increase to a speed you feel is safe without causing you to shoot past a slower car. Hit the green and its on again - go for it!! [\B]

Its the "you feel is safe" bit that needs help.
If the driver behind does this, he will be accelerating to catch the guy in front. The guy in front speeds up to avoid being caught out at the green and the people further behind are at full tilt to avoid being dropped at the green flag.

Just wondered if the extra yellow would move the problem beyond the marshals.

[goforit500]

I agree with the sentiment John, however the execution is difficult. I'm playing devils advocate here but as you well know, all us drivers will, of neccessity (because every other driver will) take the minimum notice of yellow flags that it is possible to do. This is not out of disrespect to any marshal but because

a) There is no way to be sure your fellow competitors will slow
b) There is no certainty of sanction for an infringement
c) The measure of what constitutes slowing is subjective

Perhaps we should be utilising readily available technology to measure infringements and change the interpretation from conjecture to absolute. Easily acheived with GPS type logging and a basic analysis system working the laptimes.

[EvilPumpkin]

Hi john - I see where you're coming from but there are a couple of things that I think would make it unworkable - both for drivers and marshals.

1. You're extending the yellow to three zones - steady before, waved at the incident and steady afterward. On shorter circuits (such as the Mondello national configuration) you could conceivably be taking out a third of the track.
   
2. We try to keep the yellows down to what is strictly necessary as otherwise, drivers stop taking note of them. For instance - you're driving past an incident in a yellow zone. You know the next zone is going to be yellow as well. Unfortunately, in the next zone, something else has gone wrong - and you're now completely unprepared for it because you thought the yellow flag was just a "rule book flag" not an indication of a genuine problem.

To be honest, the only solution I can see to this problem is better enforcement of driving standards and ensuring that flag rules are obeyed properly.

[stroller]

When I started Marshalling (25+ years ago!!), I'm sure the system johnw is suggesting was actually in use.

However it was changed for exactly the reasons given by Evilpumpkin.


"Its common sense"

"Do drivers have that?"

I know some that do-

They used to be Marshals!!

[neil_davidson2]

Didn't it use to be the case that a stationary yellow was displayed after the waved yellow and before the green in the way that John is thinking about?

I think the practise was changed to just a green following the waved yellow about 15 (or maybe more) years ago, presumably for the reasons that EPW states.

[Flagman]

When I started Marshalling (25+ years ago!!), I'm sure the system johnw is suggesting was actually in use.

I think age may be playing tricks with your memory

The current system has been in use for at least 35 years, probably much longer.

[flying muppet]

The practice of a stationary yellow AFTER the incident was introduced into F1 in the early 70s, and club racing in the UK the year after, I believe. It did not last long for all the valid reasons already given.

[Bryan Degerlund]

Before moving into Startline/Pits marshalling in the early 80's, I spent nearly 20 years on the bank, many of them flagging. I certainly remember showing a stationary yellow after the incident and before the green flag. I cannot remember when the practice ended, but as EP said, two incidents at the same time could close down a lot of the race, not only at short circuits but at well spaced flagging points such as Brands Hatch GP.

[Neil Warland]

If we're trying to improve safety under yellow, I have another suggestion I'd like to try out with the drivers on this forum.

If we had another flag in our arsenal, say luminous orange, which was displayed stationary along with a waved yellow when marshals were trackside, would it make any difference?

At the moment there is no indication for a driver when he comes round a corner whether the incident is a piece of debris, a spun car or half dozen marshals on the track.

For me (a course marshal) I would feel safer knowing that the drivers have at least been warned that we're on the track - even if they take no notice in terms of speed.

[Flagman]

Main problem with that is, who holds out the new flag whilst the solo flag marshal is waving the yellow?

If drivers just obeyed the rules ( waved yellow - great danger - be prepared to stop ) then there should be no problem.

[bluebeard]

"Main problem with that is, who holds out the new flag whilst the solo flag marshal is waving the yellow?"

probably the same person!
not difficult to do.... i've found myself waving 3 flags at once on more than 1 occasion!

[Flagman]

I agree it can be done, but holding a stationary whilst waving another flag invariably results in two not particularly well displayed flags - thus defeating the object of the execise. In any case you need a hand free for any/all of the following - displaying the Oil/White/Red as necessary, as well as writing down the numbers of cars that have not obeyed the rules.

Given some of the flagging you see round the country, there are many so-called flag marshals who seem to have difficulty displaying a single flag visibly, let alone adding in a second flag.

[Chigley]

Ok, lets take this to a plausible extreme, single handed flag point at Silverstone with no course/incident marshals to help, say Post 3. Big pile up with multiple cars but track isn't blocked, the incident has dumped oil all over the track before the cars slid off onto the grass. Marshals are in attendance dealing with an injured driver. Safety car is scrambled so how does the single flaggie cope with that lot.
First you've got a waved yellow and a slippery surface flag, marshals in attendance: stationary orange. Safety car in your sector: double waved yellow and SC board to hold. The one thing I haven't got is five arms, make it six cause I'll need the extra to wipe the sweat out my eyes.

Do we get the mutant transplants on the NHS or will the MSA pay for private treatment to get the flag marshal fraternity modified in quick time.

Maybe we should use the multi armed temple guard from Tomb Raider.

[Neil Warland]

OK, perhaps I started this discussion going into too much detail. What I wanted to discuss here was whether or not the idea of a 'marshals on track' indicator system would be of benefit, to drivers and marshals alike.

Flagman already stated the problem "If drivers just obeyed the rules ( waved yellow - great danger - be prepared to stop ) then there should be no problem." Drivers don't tend to slow down and probably never will. What I'm looking to do is to alert them that there are people out there running around - not just large lumps of metal.

Whether or not a flag marshal is capable of holding 6,5,4,3,2,1 or no flags is already a problem but would be a discussion for a later stage.

[Paul Millard]

i read somewhere that the formula renault guys and girls this year have a light in their cockpit and a beep on the radio for when the saftey car is out. do u think this is working? could it be modified made standard in all clases?
Paul

[stroller]

could it be modified made standard in all clases?

I'm afraid if you read some of the Racers forum messages, they already have a lot of complaints about compulsory buying/hiring of transponders for timing purposes.

I feel this would be another imposition on them

[racerkeke]

What about an orange-painted board that could be hung over the tire wall or whatever? Then the only hand you need is to swing it out and then bring it back in.

Just an idea.
keke

[Mark Mitchell]

This is almost funny!

We have a signal for "Marshals On Track" it's called a yellow Flag! Nuff Said!

The fact that we dress up in Orange Romper Suits makes it easier to see us!!

[JimW]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
John I really don't see what the problem is. When there is an incident being covered by yellow flags it is usually plain for all to see on the first pass. Its common sense, if you are in the yellow zone, be alert and ever watchful for squishy hard working marshallmellows!

Be aware on the second and subsequent passes that things may have changed (recovery vehicles, ambulances etc).

Once past the incident, increase to a speed you feel is safe without causing you to shoot past a slower car. Hit the green and its on again - go for it!!

I'm with 275 GTB-4 on this one.

(We did have a stationary yellow after the incident until the 1982 season.)

All that we need is for drivers to obey the yellow flag. (All - Who am I kidding. )

Regards

Jim

[johndpeat]

Here is a suggestion that should provoke some reactions.Use the laptiming.If R.C are awear of a yellow flag incident with Marshal in attendance and there is no signifcant drop in lap times say 3 or 4 seconds is is not safe to asumme that drivers are not obaying flags properly.If they fail to slow then give them a penalty like a stop go.If they lose positions and points then drivers may start to slow up a little more.
I have been out to incidents when the yellow has been out for severals laps and cars still mange to lose control even though they are well awear of marshals on track.

[Richard Sneader]

If we were to have an orange luminus flag to display as well( not a bad idea) we could revert to the same system people had of holding out the defunct black and yellow and the yellows for the incident on the post. They worked then it could work again but a different flag, couldnt it?.
RS