[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[S griffin]

Well Audi were always good and until Peugeot came along, were the top dog in all series. That all changed and as soon as the Pugs were on the pace, it was a much closer competition. Now it’s all about Toyota, although the GTs have been close too

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by 1969MGCGTdriver

I disagree with you on this one. During the R8 & R10 other cars won (MG, Panoz, etc) and were at least in the mix at every race.

I would offer that the same is now true for the LMP1 privateers.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

I would offer that the same is now true for the LMP1 privateers.

The LMP1 privateers have only won when Toyotas were disqualified.

[ApexTurtle]

Indeed, they have as much chance against Toyota as anyone did against Audi until Peugeot.

[Akrapovic]

Zyteks and Pescarolos beat the R8s in Europe, whilst Zyteks, MGs and Panoz beat them in the US. Whilst Audi dominated, it was possible to beat them - sometimes on pace, sometimes on reliability. The current privateers cannot do that with Toyota. It requires a full disqualification for it to even be an option.

The gap between factory and privateer is larger than ever.

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Zyteks and Pescarolos beat the R8s in Europe,

When? As far as I know there were never any factory R8s in Europe outside of Le Mans.

The biggest difference is that the Toyota as of now is simply completely bulletproof. Just like the Audi days, they need to break before the competition gets a chance.

[Deleted]

There wasn't much of anything outside LM and ALMS, before the launch of LMES in 2004, so your logic doesn't make sense in any case

Also the "hybrid" Pescarolos were sort of able to match the supported privateers in 2005 and factory diesel in 2006, better than the current privateers in any case

Anyway, last year was a farce with the horrendous mandated stints & penalties for hybrid and nonhybrid, but this year that should be gone, unless Toyota demands ACO to bring it back before June

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

When? As far as I know there were never any factory R8s in Europe outside of Le Mans.

The biggest difference is that the Toyota as of now is simply completely bulletproof. Just like the Audi days, they need to break before the competition gets a chance.

There were plenty of private R8s being run with factory drivers and factory support.

In the Audi days, the Audis did break. Not often, but they did. The Toyota advantage is so massive now that they cal dial it back to 80% and still win by 5 laps, and negating any reliability advantage.

As said - You could beat an Audi. It was rare and hard, but it was do-able. You cannot beat a Toyota. It has to be thrown out of the race for that to happen.

Disclaimer: I'm not blaming Toyota. They're making the best of the situation, as they should. And as Chiana says, half the issue was the bad rule book with stint lengths and pit stops etc.

[Deleted]

Yes... I will still anyday take "boring" Toyota/Audi/whoever domination and 20 lap win margin over soulless BoP lottery.

In any case, I think the 919 retirement out of the lead on Sunday morning 2017, with 12 lap lead or whatever it was over the first of the LMP2 Orecas, proves that even when in total control and with absolutely no-one pushing you, you can still fail

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

There were plenty of private R8s being run with factory drivers and factory support.

But that's not nearly the same as an actual factory effort. Which is what the Toyotas are. I'm sure we can agree on that So we're in the same situation. You couldn't beat a factory Audi and you can't beat a factory Toyota. Unless they break down, which hasn't happened to the Toyotas yet. In contrast to the LMP1 privateers who haven't finished a single race without significant stoppage. I suppose next season some of those kinks will have been worked out. I suppose for some people the fact the Audis did break down on occasion made it more exciting?

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yes... I will still anyday take "boring" Toyota/Audi/whoever domination and 20 lap win margin over soulless BoP lottery.

Very much so!

[carbsmith]

The only time the original model R8 was beaten as a factory car was in pouring rain at the Nurburgring in '00, otherwise it won 13 out of 14 starts from Sebring in March 2000 to Jarama in May 2001. The '01 version was beaten three times and the '02 version once by Panoz, all at ultra tight tracks (Portland, Mid-Ohio, Sears Point, Washington) there's nothing even close to in any non-US prototype championship. In '03 Joest and Champion won 8/9 as non-factory teams with the '02 car, once again losing at Sears Point but to the ex-factory LMP675 Lola. They still beat the Bentleys at Sebring even, although obviously lost at Le Mans.

After that the weird transitional rules that Audi never really did any development for began and everything is a crapshoot, but even as a 100% grandfathered car running under the least favourable equivalency rules with zero development except for the legality end plate boxes since 2002 it still won like 80% of the races.

[Lutzvic]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yes... I will still anyday take "boring" Toyota/Audi/whoever domination and 20 lap win margin over soulless BoP lottery.

In any case, I think the 919 retirement out of the lead on Sunday morning 2017, with 12 lap lead or whatever it was over the first of the LMP2 Orecas, proves that even when in total control and with absolutely no-one pushing you, you can still fail

For the sake of the race I do hope some breakdown period for the Toyotas...I'd love to see a Rebellion crossing the finish line first

[S griffin]

I personally would prefer to see Rebellion be a closer to Toyota, that would add to it. But it's unlikely

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Lutzvic

For the sake of the race I do hope some breakdown period for the Toyotas...I'd love to see a Rebellion crossing the finish line first

Toyota had their clean run last year. Normal service will resume this year with one car retiring because a mechanic left his baguette in the footwell causing the driver's boot to slip off the brake pedal, and the other car finishing 12 laps down on the winner (ByKolles!) after repeated failures of a component the team didn't even know existed.

[Lutzvic]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Toyota had their clean run last year. Normal service will resume this year with one car retiring because a mechanic left his baguette in the footwell causing the driver's boot to slip off the brake pedal, and the other car finishing 12 laps down on the winner (ByKolles!) after repeated failures of a component the team didn't even know existed.

Deal!

[TF110]

I think they fixed their 'curse'. I would be surprised if anyone is on the same lap as them in the next two races. We'll see how the new aero does for Rebellion, though. Hope it brings them closer at Spa. They were decently close last year.

[Mike E]

Hartley confirmed as Alonso replacement.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...0-fia-wec.html

[kobefly]

The email Toyota Gazoo Racing sent today states:

Brendon will join Mike Conway, Kamui Kobayashi, José MarÃ*a López, Sébastien and Kazuki as a race driver for TOYOTA GAZOO Racing in WEC next season, which begins on 1 September at Silverstone and concludes on 14 June 2020 at Le Mans. The driver line-up of each TS050 HYBRID will be confirmed later.

So the other 5 drivers are confirmed for next season.

[S griffin]

Wonder why they announced it this early? It’s a shame Hartley’s out of F1 before he’s had the chance, but at least he’s joining a good series of those who missed out in F1. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens next season, will it be anymore competitive? Time will tell

[TF110]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Wonder why they announced it this early? It’s a shame Hartley’s out of F1 before he’s had the chance, but at least he’s joining a good series of those who missed out in F1. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens next season, will it be anymore competitive? Time will tell

I hope it is more competitive. With the latest eot it looks like they're headed in the right direction. Now to get the right type of tires for the private teams and maybe they won't need to ballast Toyota an additional 30kg.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Wonder why they announced it this early? It’s a shame Hartley’s out of F1 before he’s had the chance, but at least he’s joining a good series of those who missed out in F1. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens next season, will it be anymore competitive? Time will tell

I can't see anything particularly early in it. Brendon is realistic about his position and naturally wanted to nail that Toyota seat. Do you think he had a shot at something better?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I can't see anything particularly early in it. Brendon is realistic about his position and naturally wanted to nail that Toyota seat. Do you think he had a shot at something better?

I agree. There's no spots in F1 for him, go for the Toyota seat.

[S griffin]

Well that’s probably why. Unless Toro Rosso suddenly call him back of course. But obviously he’s not holding out for it

[S griffin]

Shame he never got the chance in F1, but at least this Toyota drive will be good for him

[Aysedasi]

I think we all know it's not going to happen. It would have been interesting to see him in the current car though.