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Old 16 Jun 2007, 22:17 (Ref:1939109)   #1
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To Fuel or Not to Fuel - That is the Question

OK guys - one for the old timers amongst us. Would F1 be a better spectacle if the rules were to change back to the 80's.... ie, start the race on the tank of fuel you're going to finish on, and a 1 hour qualifying shoot out to see who gets pole?

My own personal opinion is that Ferrari's incredulous demands to introduce fuel pitstops (they couldn't run on heavy fuel loads) has made F1 a poor relation to what we used to have 20 years ago. There's so much confusion now what with umpteen pit stops, umpteen strategies and qualifying is largely nullified as we never know who's doing what for the race (this 3 stage setup is ugly, dull and boring).

Come on Ecclestone - if you want to look at an entertaining motorsport on which to base your business plan on, look no further than MotoGP or Superbikes. And while we're at it, can we get back to F1 on BBC2 with Murray Walker's dulcit tones across the airwaves and 'The Chain' bellowing out and making the hairs on the back of my neck stand up!

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Old 16 Jun 2007, 22:25 (Ref:1939119)   #2
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It was the Brabham team that introduced the fuel pit stops. Gordon Murray and Nelson Piquet to be more precise.
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Old 16 Jun 2007, 22:40 (Ref:1939132)   #3
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Then they were banned after 1983 (a whopping one and a bit seasons) and then re-introduced to "spice up the show" in 1994.

I don't think it was anything to do with Ferrari, more just to make things different.

Personally, I see re-fuelling as both an unnecessary danger and a destroyer of races.
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Old 16 Jun 2007, 22:41 (Ref:1939135)   #4
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Originally Posted by Rory
My own personal opinion is that Ferrari's incredulous demands to introduce fuel pitstops (they couldn't run on heavy fuel loads) has made F1 a poor relation to what we used to have 20 years ago. There's so much confusion now what with umpteen pit stops, umpteen strategies and qualifying is largely nullified as we never know who's doing what for the race (this 3 stage setup is ugly, dull and boring)
My recollection of F1 without fuel stops was an endless stream of precessional races with vitually no overtaking, and tyre wear adding to lap times as quickly as falling fuel load was reducing them. And what about those 1hour qualifying sessions with 53 mins of watching the track slowly drying and every team wanting someone else to go out first. Do you think that maybe your memory is a little rose tinted?
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Old 16 Jun 2007, 23:15 (Ref:1939151)   #5
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Dutton should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridDutton should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridDutton should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridDutton should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Regarding pre-2003 qualifying...I personally found it highly satisfactory (including the wait). All they had to do was introduced a rule that said the teams had to complete 3 laps in the first 20 minutes - or something of a similar effect (I personally think it was fine as was, but that would solve the "wait" problem).

I would quite happily see re-fuelling banned. HOWEVER, I do not think, as many seem to, that this would suddenly induce overtaking. The drivers would overtake at the moment if they were able to.
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Old 16 Jun 2007, 23:17 (Ref:1939154)   #6
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Originally Posted by Bononi
It was the Brabham team that introduced the fuel pit stops. Gordon Murray and Nelson Piquet to be more precise.
Brabham weren't enough of a force to bring about such a monumental change. Everyone was so hellbent on seeing Ferrari win again, that they decided to go with the notion of lighter cars starting the race.... low and behold, Ferrari were a force again.
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Old 16 Jun 2007, 23:23 (Ref:1939164)   #7
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Originally Posted by dtype38
My recollection of F1 without fuel stops was an endless stream of precessional races with vitually no overtaking, and tyre wear adding to lap times as quickly as falling fuel load was reducing them. And what about those 1hour qualifying sessions with 53 mins of watching the track slowly drying and every team wanting someone else to go out first. Do you think that maybe your memory is a little rose tinted?
Motor racing is as much about speed of a driver as it is about how smooth you are. Those who went out of the gates like a bat out of hell generally didn't last the pace as they cooked their tyres before the end of race. And how many other formulaes of racing have fuel stops and tyre changes?

Let's face it, perhaps rose tinted, but F1 back in the day was about the drivers first and foremost - not being plugged into a laptop, controlled from the pitwall, dictated to by your race strategist and at the mercy of your 3 in and out laps being better than the rest.

Little wonder Ecclestone has to scratch around for new ideas every year to try and get the figures up. F1 is almost akin to playing the Sony equivalent on your PSP.... bloody repetitive and a far cry from purist motor racing.

Back to slicks, cut out the fuel stops, reduce the number of laps and get rid of this mind numbing qualies.
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Old 16 Jun 2007, 23:38 (Ref:1939185)   #8
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foreversideways should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridforeversideways should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Bring it back to the driver. No traction control, manual gear changes, no pit to car radio, lots of power, big slicks and no pit stops. Flag to flag driver makes his own decisions without the benefit of 300 hundred other people.
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Old 16 Jun 2007, 23:50 (Ref:1939195)   #9
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Originally Posted by Dutton
Regarding pre-2003 qualifying...I personally found it highly satisfactory (including the wait). All they had to do was introduced a rule that said the teams had to complete 3 laps in the first 20 minutes - or something of a similar effect (I personally think it was fine as was, but that would solve the "wait" problem).

I would quite happily see re-fuelling banned. HOWEVER, I do not think, as many seem to, that this would suddenly induce overtaking. The drivers would overtake at the moment if they were able to.
It wouldn't induce overtaking necessarily, or make it easier. But it would remove that choice of "waiting for the pitstops".
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Old 16 Jun 2007, 23:53 (Ref:1939200)   #10
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ralf fan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridralf fan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridralf fan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridralf fan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Rory
low and behold, Ferrari were a force again.
Yes it took only about 10 years for Ferrari to 'force' the FIA to make these changes and a further 6 for them to win the championship. Man how do they get away with such blatant influence over the governing body!
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Old 17 Jun 2007, 00:26 (Ref:1939227)   #11
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Dutton should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridDutton should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridDutton should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridDutton should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Knowlesy
But it would remove that choice of "waiting for the pitstops".
They would have to ban tyre stops to achieve that. Given we just tried that, it seems unlikely we will go back to it anytime soon.
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Old 17 Jun 2007, 00:27 (Ref:1939228)   #12
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Given we just tried that, it seems unlikely we will go back to it anytime soon.
What a shame that they didn't stick with it too.
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Old 17 Jun 2007, 00:44 (Ref:1939238)   #13
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They would have to ban tyre stops to achieve that.
Not necessarily. You would quite possibly get some gambling on not changing tyres, meaning they would have to be passed. It's unlikely, but you never know really.

As for the one tyre thing...argh, you have re-opened an old wound. Why did they get rid of that idea!
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Old 17 Jun 2007, 00:48 (Ref:1939242)   #14
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Some would argue because Ferrari were suffering badly as a result.

I'm not saying that is the case, but many would say that. OTOH, if that was the reason, it leaves open hope since there is no tyre war now.
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Old 17 Jun 2007, 03:21 (Ref:1939320)   #15
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Originally Posted by Rory
Brabham weren't enough of a force to bring about such a monumental change. Everyone was so hellbent on seeing Ferrari win again, that they decided to go with the notion of lighter cars starting the race.... low and behold, Ferrari were a force again.
It wasn't a change, it was an innovation, and it was adopted by all other teams, and then like Knowlesy clarified, it was banned for a long time, mostly because the danger of the refueling, there wasn't technology good enough to make it safe. There wasn't any political purpose on that.
Like Ralf fan observed it took a long time until Ferrari start to win again, hardly they had benefited from that "change".
The Ferrari "win all" conspiracy is related to TGF's era rather than the previous versions of the team...

But if you like conspiracies theories, here's a good one... Bernie owned the team at the time of invention of the refueling, so it might have grown on him to bring it back...

Anyway, Gordon Murray's ideas have brought many technologies that today are common place, so he deserves to be respected.

Last edited by Bononi; 17 Jun 2007 at 03:25.
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