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Old 14 Sep 2023, 07:49 (Ref:4176586)   #26
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Not to bothered about this. I am sure the radio messages we are receiving are curated specifically to create drama on TV so it looks like is a lot of complaining. But we do not get the full conversation or the rest of the conversations. Also we dont know the emotions you are under whilst racing. Have no idea how I would react in an F1 car at such speeds.

Pretty sure this was going on in the past as well - it was just not televised and penlaties were not under such scrutiny by experts on social media. Opening F1 to social media has been a real success by F1 after the Bernie days, however sometimes I think they are too quick to react to critcism from social media as well and adapt to appease a few loud voices on there

I have more issues with race control releasing communications to stir up drama for absolutely no reason just to make someone look good or bad.
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Old 14 Sep 2023, 08:10 (Ref:4176589)   #27
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Old 14 Sep 2023, 09:57 (Ref:4176598)   #28
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That was a great battle between Massa and Kubica. I remember it well. It was basically Villenueve/Arnoux all over again. Just hard racing, without being malicious and no complaining, no worries about track limits. That's how F1 should be. It's getting sad when drivers can't enjoy battles because they are always complaining about what the other driver has done

The problem IMO is with the race stewards who jump on every dubious move by a driver. It's motor racing for goodness sake! I get so annoyed when the message that 'such and such an incident between driver x and driver y is under investigation' comes on screen.
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Old 14 Sep 2023, 10:37 (Ref:4176602)   #29
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The problem IMO is with the race stewards who jump on every dubious move by a driver. It's motor racing for goodness sake! I get so annoyed when the message that 'such and such an incident between driver x and driver y is under investigation' comes on screen.

That is unfortunate, Peter, however a lot of the problem is that drivers in all forms of racing, from F1 down to the humble clubbie, are incapable of policing themselves and driving responsibly.

You and I both raced a long time ago, and I can recall being told at the drivers' briefing that unacceptable driving would result in that driver being black flagged and excluded from further racing that day.

When was the last time you saw a black flag shown for a driving infraction? I can't remember it was so long ago and drivers are now dealt with, usually, after a race.

It's a bit like life in general; there seems to be a lot of lacking in self-discipline nowadays.
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Old 14 Sep 2023, 15:08 (Ref:4176629)   #30
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That was a great battle between Massa and Kubica. I remember it well. It was basically Villenueve/Arnoux all over again. Just hard racing, without being malicious and no complaining, no worries about track limits. That's how F1 should be. It's getting sad when drivers can't enjoy battles because they are always complaining about what the other driver has done
Sure it's enjoyable to watch, but my follow up question stands... Where are the limits? If track limits no longer exists and cutting corners and pushing other drivers off track is allowable, then why not do that every lap and for every pass? Is it really racing if no rules apply?

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Old 15 Sep 2023, 08:14 (Ref:4176702)   #31
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The problem IMO is with the race stewards who jump on every dubious move by a driver. It's motor racing for goodness sake! I get so annoyed when the message that 'such and such an incident between driver x and driver y is under investigation' comes on screen.
Exactly! 9 times out of 10 they will investigate every bit of incident, no matter how minor and even if the driver instigating it ruins his own race more. Drivers make mistakes and there will be incidents from time to time. The stewards should concentrate more on the dangerous/dirty stuff. The lack of consistency doesn't help much
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Old 15 Sep 2023, 08:23 (Ref:4176704)   #32
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Where are the limits? If track limits no longer exists and cutting corners and pushing other drivers off track is allowable, then why not do that every lap and for every pass? Is it really racing if no rules apply? Richard
Agreed. Just one thing: is it really racing? if yes, since when? Or did it stop being at one point… When?
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Old 15 Sep 2023, 16:55 (Ref:4176753)   #33
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That is unfortunate, Peter, however a lot of the problem is that drivers in all forms of racing, from F1 down to the humble clubbie, are incapable of policing themselves and driving responsibly. You and I both raced a long time ago, and I can recall being told at the drivers' briefing that unacceptable driving would result in that driver being black flagged and excluded from further racing that day.


Certainly a long time ago, Mike.

Perhaps the answer might be less interference from the stewards but make the penalties more severe when (real) action is required.
Also a pet hate is the imposition of 10 second penalties for indescretions, or to be more precise when, such penalties are applied. A 10 second penalty applied early in a race can be 'worked back' as the race progresses whereas the same penalty applied near the end of a race is far harder to overcome. Lewis Hamilton receivet a penalty at Monza early in the race which he had time to overcome before the end. This would probably have been impossible if it had been imposed near the end. Surely a penalty should have the same effect whenever it is imposed.
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Old 15 Sep 2023, 17:27 (Ref:4176759)   #34
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Just noticed this thread was 'official' - didn't mean to make it that.
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Old 15 Sep 2023, 17:41 (Ref:4176760)   #35
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Surely a penalty should have the same effect whenever it is imposed.
while that sounds like the right way to do things and no doubt they way things should be done but no sport has figured out how to do it. timing of the penalty always plays a part.

not sure how to get around that one imo.
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Old 15 Sep 2023, 18:02 (Ref:4176762)   #36
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As Chilli says, that is a conundrum that is to be solved. If a penalty is awarded against a football team in the first minute of the game, they have 89 mins approximately to level the score or even go ahead. Not so if it is awarded just before the final whistle is blown.
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Old 15 Sep 2023, 21:55 (Ref:4176781)   #37
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while that sounds like the right way to do things and no doubt they way things should be done but no sport has figured out how to do it. timing of the penalty always plays a part.

not sure how to get around that one imo.
A one place penalty is the same whenever it is applied.
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Old 15 Sep 2023, 22:20 (Ref:4176783)   #38
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Depends how far the person behind is, who it is, when in the race it is, and from a championship perspective which place it is.
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Old 15 Sep 2023, 22:41 (Ref:4176785)   #39
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A one place penalty is the same whenever it is applied.
True.

The impact and consequence of the penalty might differ, but the penalty is consistent.
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Old 19 Sep 2023, 02:02 (Ref:4177358)   #40
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Two ten second penalties are consistent with each other, but impact and consequence of the penalty might differ! Same with one place penalties.

Based on morninggents original assertion that “Surely a penalty should have the same effect whenever it is imposed.” it is not true.
https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...3&postcount=33

But it is fine, in all sports penalties generally have differing impacts on the result. I suppose with the exception of disqualification. Although even then maybe…
Variation is what makes it interesting.
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Old 19 Sep 2023, 08:16 (Ref:4177379)   #41
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It makes it interesting, but does it make it a punishment? A one-place penalty would clearly be a punishment for all who receive it. However, if all who got penalties now got one-place penalties, a lot of teams and drivers would feel aggrieved and that the punishment was not in proportion to the crime, but that's a different argument.
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Old 19 Sep 2023, 08:24 (Ref:4177380)   #42
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There is nothing new in any of this, nor in my respectful opinion, will there ever be. 'Make the punishment fit the crime' is wonderful in concept but will always be nigh-on impossible to apply consistently in practice. I spent my working days as a lawyer dealing with criminals, ranging from 'top end' down to the most minor parking offence. But there are always comparisons which are difficult to come to terms with. The shoplifter who constantly steals to feed his or her drug habit who is fined £75 and the driver who is fined £500 for doing 85 on an almost empty motorway.... The drunken oaf who causes hundreds of pounds worth of damage to parked cars by ripping off their door mirrors who gets a conditional discharge because it's 'out of character' or 'it was a one-off' or 'he's good to his Mum' and the impoverished single parent who is fined £250 for not having a TV licence. One size has never (ever) fitted all...
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Old 19 Sep 2023, 12:03 (Ref:4177414)   #43
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This article raises good point: https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/p...enalty-system/

If drivers start to realise barging someone out the way may not damage their car them or they're prepared to take that risk, their reward may be a mere 5-second penalty. They will actually factor that 5-second penalty into their strategy.
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Old 19 Sep 2023, 12:09 (Ref:4177417)   #44
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Perhaps they need to remove radios from the car!

Give the driver a proper steering wheel, a gear stick and a pit guy with a board and lets go racing.

F1 seems to be developing into soap drama for TV.
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Old 19 Sep 2023, 12:51 (Ref:4177423)   #45
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This article raises good point: https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/p...enalty-system/

If drivers start to realise barging someone out the way may not damage their car them or they're prepared to take that risk, their reward may be a mere 5-second penalty. They will actually factor that 5-second penalty into their strategy.

As I wrote in answer to 'morningent' in another thread, or was it this one?, these penalties are far too often absolutely meaningless. As I wrote then, as we both races at around the same around 50 odd years ago, what has happened to the use of the black flag?

Back in the "good" old days, we were told in no uncertain terms at the drivers' briefing that if our driving was considered to not be in line with the rules and regulations, then we would be black flagged and have to explain ourselves to the clerk of the course.

I would humbly suggest that if the race director was to do that just once, it would immediately stop a lot if not all of the errant driving that we see far too often. And that would no doubt trickle down to the humblest form of circuit racing.
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Old 19 Sep 2023, 15:45 (Ref:4177455)   #46
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Sure it's enjoyable to watch, but my follow up question stands... Where are the limits? If track limits no longer exists and cutting corners and pushing other drivers off track is allowable, then why not do that every lap and for every pass? Is it really racing if no rules apply?
Exactly. Taking the recent Malaysian GP as an example, the "no limits" approach would have allowed Hamilton to keep his two place gain by running off the road at the first corner. But then, if everyone knew that was the rule, the entire field would have cut the corner and driven across the run-off.
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Old 19 Sep 2023, 17:32 (Ref:4177463)   #47
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Surely F! could give in the the eco mob, stop actually using the gas or burning any fuel and just the the stewards decide how the race would have finished in thier opinion. Ticks loads of boxes but everyone would switch of and find other entrtainment. If i had my way the cars would be allowed to race and stewards would have no more than 2 laps to make a decission after thay fines only and no effect on the race itself. We want to see racing.
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Old 19 Sep 2023, 21:19 (Ref:4177506)   #48
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to your point, the F1 broadcast centre receives over 100 live feeds at their facility at Biggin Hill which is set up with 415 monitors providing split screen views of thousands of screens worth of information all be it with a 6s delay.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/be...tion/10510865/

Of course the stewards probably don’t have access to all that track side (although like the other major sports N.American perhaps officiating over-site should all be handled real time at a central data location) even a fraction of that should be enough info in real time that making decisions within a couple of laps should be more than possible now days.

They have the technology and I suspect (well hope) things are already heading in this direction.

Not sure you will ever get athletes to stop complaining but at least things can be done much faster.
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