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Old 14 Jan 2020, 18:23 (Ref:3951613)   #16
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
It’s something that wouldn’t really work. Leave it as it is, don’t complicate things further
How do you know it wouldn’t really work? And I think the current PU is already pretty complicated, maybe using a 2 stroke ICE would make it simpler!
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Old 14 Jan 2020, 18:29 (Ref:3951615)   #17
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ostensibly though, we have the engine we have now because Merc and Renault were working on them before they were adopted by F1 and pushed the series into accepting it.

granted i dont know who presented this idea at the conference, but i just dont see the manus following a design path that doesnt specifically come from either Merc or Ferrari.
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Old 14 Jan 2020, 19:08 (Ref:3951621)   #18
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Until the current generation of F1 engines came along,the most efficient engines in existence were the 2 stroke turbocharged engines fitted to ships-universally diesels.They don't depend on a fuel/oil mix and they actually run on some pretty dreadful fuel.If there isn't much more efficiency to be squeezed from a 4 stroke,it may be politically expedient to take advantage of a concept that is inherently more efficient.


The current F1 engines have compression ratios that would have been thought of a diesel like a few years ago and as I understand it,they use a form of pre-combustion chamber which is also a characteristic of diesels.The direct injection is another diesel feature,so why shouldn't there be a move to adopting a different form of engine and refining it.It would be rather nice to see enormous ships saving a few hundred tons of fuel each trip courtesy of work done on the world's race circuits.Certainly a more useful way to go than having a bunch of unemployed vegans agitating to get racing banned.
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Old 14 Jan 2020, 20:43 (Ref:3951633)   #19
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Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
How do you know it wouldn’t really work? And I think the current PU is already pretty complicated, maybe using a 2 stroke ICE would make it simpler!
Not that the article is gospel, but it does say that even with a 2 stroke ICE, there would likely also be a hybrid component to the solution. I fully believe the days of simple F1 engines are long, long, long gone.

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Old 14 Jan 2020, 21:21 (Ref:3951639)   #20
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Originally Posted by Armco Bender View Post
And their off.....in a cloud of blue smoke.
Hehe.

An image of a grid of Trabants appeared before my eyes and an addition to the F1 Pilotes book of excuses for first corner incidents related to not being able to see where the corner was as an excuse for arriving locked up on the grass and taking out the entire mid-field ...

Either that or the brakes not working due to oil on the track.
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Old 15 Jan 2020, 10:42 (Ref:3951728)   #21
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Seems not only F1 mooting 2 stroke PUs- also Moto GP....

https://www.visordown.com/news/racin...engine-formula
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 11:49 (Ref:3951932)   #22
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Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I wonder what the real reason for the comment was as I am not convinced it was a serious comment and there was a hidden agenda behind the whole thing. Call me cynical!

Actually the modern 2 stroke outboard motor is a very nice thing but two strokes in modern cars have had their day. Mazda is rumoured to be developing a hybrid using a very small constant speed rotary as a range extender which F1 might like to pick up.

One thing a two stroke is not is fuel efficient so he proposes top use a motor type that is not fuel efficient and feed it bio fuel? He lost all credibility for me with his first aero study in F1 all those years ago and basically steered F1 into the aero hole it now finds itself and he is part of the plan for the new car, how does that work?
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 13:20 (Ref:3951943)   #23
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
I wonder what the real reason for the comment was as I am not convinced it was a serious comment and there was a hidden agenda behind the whole thing. Call me cynical!
I wonder if all of this is attributable to slow news days during the racing off season. The Motorsports Magazine website is down for maintenance as I type this, so I can't go back and try to figure out how that article came to be. The MotoGP one seems to be pure speculation driven by the MM article.

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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Actually the modern 2 stroke outboard motor is a very nice thing but two strokes in modern cars have had their day. Mazda is rumoured to be developing a hybrid using a very small constant speed rotary as a range extender which F1 might like to pick up.

One thing a two stroke is not is fuel efficient so he proposes top use a motor type that is not fuel efficient and feed it bio fuel? He lost all credibility for me with his first aero study in F1 all those years ago and basically steered F1 into the aero hole it now finds itself and he is part of the plan for the new car, how does that work?
If you look over at F1technical.net, there has been a long standing 2 stroke thread and there was speculation that this topic came up due to a research paper about new Opposing Cylinder + Gasoline Compression Ignition configuration that has significantly boosted 2 stroke efficiency. Here is the paper (which is mostly over my head)

http://achatespower.com/wp-content/u...8_API_2017.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoQkTIfAB2U

It sounds like Achates Power has developed this concept (very different from classic 2 stroke designs) and are looking to sell it to someone (currently working with US Dept of Energy on some type of POC or pilot program)

With that being said, who knows if that engine layout is suitable for racing or not. I have no reason to doubt the claims of that paper, but it could be a unique solution for niche scenarios.

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Old 16 Jan 2020, 14:10 (Ref:3951949)   #24
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wolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I came across an engine that had a similar idea of opposing pistons while at college
but with a different mechanical set up in that used one crankshaft. The pistons drove a rocker that drove conrods connected to the pistons. I cannot remember the inlet outlet arrangement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoQkTIfAB2U
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 14:42 (Ref:3951953)   #25
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Hopefully not going OT, but opposed piston 2 stroke engines go back a long way. Here’s a couple, admittedly diesel......

Napier Deltic-

https://www.dieselarmy.com/engine-te...-diesel-works/

Commer TS3. It made an unmistakable noise

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...t-twelve-dyno/
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 14:59 (Ref:3951956)   #26
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Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
Hopefully not going OT, but opposed piston 2 stroke engines go back a long way. Here’s a couple, admittedly diesel......
Yeah, it's not a new idea. Given the age of the ICE concept, I expect there are few new ideas as far as configurations. Occasionally I see some really odd new ones, but they are just variations on old ideas.

I don't know what all that company I mention has done to refresh the idea other than to tie it to the very diesel like ignition system. And I think they also think that same company has diesel solutions as well?

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Old 16 Jan 2020, 23:46 (Ref:3952029)   #27
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A lot of old ideas are made more feasible by modern electronic control in engine management both on the ignition and fuel side. Modern two stroke outboards are using 100 to 1 oil mix to meet with both air and water pollution issues for instance. I think the idea of getting the motor industry to turn the ship around and abandon all the work done in the last ten years on electrification is day dream stuff in the extreme.

The fleet emission average set by legislators just about forces them to go down the path of zero emissions at the tail pipe and this capped by regional bans and charges on certain vehicles reinforces that approach. I cannot see F1 doing anything that clashes with what the mainstream manufacturers are doing as the political ramifications would be simply devastating. Imagine if Mercedes were to agree to a two stroke motor, the political back lash would be something that MB could not tolerate at any level.

That is why I conjectured that there must be some other agenda going on here because as a serious question it does not hold water at any level.
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Old 17 Jan 2020, 06:51 (Ref:3952046)   #28
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Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
Hopefully not going OT, but opposed piston 2 stroke engines go back a long way. Here’s a couple, admittedly diesel......

Napier Deltic-

https://www.dieselarmy.com/engine-te...-diesel-works/

Commer TS3. It made an unmistakable noise

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...t-twelve-dyno/
Thanks again for the Deltic & Commer links Mike. Two iconic engines that I remember from my childhood for the way they sounded totally different to anything else. As a side note, I think the famous Ecurie Ecosse transporter is Commer DS3 powered?
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Old 17 Jan 2020, 07:50 (Ref:3952051)   #29
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Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
Thanks again for the Deltic & Commer links Mike. Two iconic engines that I remember from my childhood for the way they sounded totally different to anything else. As a side note, I think the famous Ecurie Ecosse transporter is Commer DS3 powered?
It is indeed. Those DS3 engines howl! When I was an apprentice our local council dustcarts were Commer 2 strokes and from memory they were very reliable.

Agree with Casper that the whole idea of 2 stroke F1 engines is fantasy....
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Old 17 Jan 2020, 08:24 (Ref:3952055)   #30
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P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
A number of posters appear to be assuming that there is a need for 2 stroke engines to run on a fuel/oil mixture,like an old lawnmower engine.With direct injection and forced induction,it doesn't have to be that way.There is no reason why lubrication can't be done by circulating oil in the way it is done at present and in the huge marine engines I referenced in an earlier post it is done this way.As long as we are using forced induction It just needs a valve ,or port, to open for the entrance of air and the fuel can be injected just before ignition.
I don't think i have seen a reference on this forum to the importance of direct injection to the big gains in thermal efficiency of the last few years.Not so many years ago it was verging on impossible to use compression ratios of more than about 13.5:1 because of detonation.Now that fuel is injected directly the rules limit the engines to 18:1 and this is with forced induction.If the engines under discussion don't have to scrape a set of piston rings up and down one extra time in each combustion cycle,won't there be another big step in efficiency gains?The timing of valve/port openings might be some way from what we are used to and may take a little time to optimise but it would be unwise to dismiss the idea of a move to a different form of engine because of what they used to be like.
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