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Old 20 Jul 2007, 15:30 (Ref:1968389)   #1
WebberForWDC
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Is Falcon/Commodore only really OK?

So in recent times between Moffat/Johnson vs. Brock and Seton vs. Skaife there were championships collected by all of Volvo, Mazda, BMW, the Ford Turbos and Nissan??? A hell of a lot non-Falcon/Commodore championships!

So onto a touring car championship with a diverse and excellent range of relatively even entrants that allowed for V8 Falcons and Commodores to compete with the others anyway, a drastic rule change was applied.

A rule change that would be the same as going to the GT championship, going hmm that's a nice diverse and excellent range of relatively even entrants where the V10 cars can compete anyway but instead by the stroke of a pen we will decree all cars that don't have ten cylinders can go home, so we will conduct a Lambo vs Aston DB9 race and all the F430's and Porsches and their backers can go get stuffed because a thumping V10 race is all the fans want to see!

It doesn't really seem reasonable...
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Old 20 Jul 2007, 23:31 (Ref:1968716)   #2
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Ahhh, don 't know how to break this to you but a Lambo is a V10.

It sounds like someone yo know has tried to turn up with one of the older Vipers still around like an ex-Crick/Russell/French/Morgan unit. These could enter the championship but wouldn't be eleigible next year (or the year after, can't remember which) when all cars must comply to the FA gt3 rule book.

In which case, your quite welcome to go and purchase a Viper Competition Coupe GT3. Or a Callaway Corvette GT3. Or a Jag XKR GT3. Or an Ascari GT3. Or a Maserati Trofeo GT3. Or a Ford GT GT3. Or a Ferrari 430 GT3. Or a Lambo Galalrdo GT3. Or an Aston Martin DBRS9 GT3. Or a Porsche 997 GT3.

Oops, strike that last one. The colonial Germans don't want to come out and play. My bad, I forgot again.

Not bad diversity, really.
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Old 21 Jul 2007, 01:50 (Ref:1968761)   #3
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The point I was trying to make is making radical new Group 3A regulations, when V8 engined Falcons and Commdores were already elligible provided homologation, was totally unreasonable, and excluding the cars from BMW, Nissan, Mazda and Volvo is just like kicking all the non V10 cars out of the GT championship then giving the V10 cars extra aero, and saying to all those other cars with 6 or 8 cylinders that they aren't bloody elligible anymore anyway because don't have the right aero (just like in V8s case these non elligible cars didn't have the pushrod V8, australian manufacture or solid rear dif that was suddenly required etc...).

This thread is about the V8's!

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Old 21 Jul 2007, 02:49 (Ref:1968776)   #4
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Another great topic - i have been giving this a bit of thought over the last few weeks after a few of my customers at work (who are huge v8 fans) saying the racing was becoming a bit processional again and the results predictable again.

This year has been pretty good racing, but generally the series (v8 supercar) is still struggling to make an impact in the mainstream media and the fan sentiment that i have seen is becoming a little 'ho-hum'....

My thoughts started after reading some old Bathurst and Motor Racing year books in my collection from the early mid 80's. Holden and Ford were competitive in touring car racing, but we also had some other players that could race at the front in an even fashion - Nissan, Mazda, BMW, Volvo, Alfa Romeo.. We all know that Group A didnt work in Australia, primarily due to the lack of Market relevance of the cars doing the racing - Ford Sierra, BMW M3, Nissan GTR etc - all of which couldnt be bought in Australia at the time, and hence the origins of V8 Supercar....to bring market relevance back to the racing.

The question i think this thread was designed to raise (correct me if I am wrong here Webber.. ) was is there room and a rule structure that will allow addition manufacturers to compete in Australian Touring Car racing ?

The short answer is - it is a possibility, but not under the current rule structure. There have been mutterings about a third and maybe a fourth manufacturer entering V8's for what seems like years now - but it never really happens. Why is this ?

My guess: Pushrod V8 engined cars dont exactly showcase the technology that the road car industry seems to thrive on. Toyota has been everyone's pick as V8's 'third' party but Toyota is a company that is very technology focussed and doesnt produce a V8 engined car (badged as a Toyota) in Australia, and probably never will...You could throw 3 or 4 other car co's in that same statement.

I know that Toyota is involved in NASCAR and that V8SCA uses that model (NASCAR) very closely. NASCAR is a different animal to Supercar and it is a different country with a different market. If Toyota thought that V8 Supercars were an excellent marketing medium - they would be involved already..

The Cochrane Cattach express needs to take stock of where the V8 Supercars are at present. Holden and Ford are cost-cutting, Toyota is overtaking them in the market and more companies are introducing technology. The mainstream media arent getting anymore interested and sponsor rotation is becoming more frequent. The fans are still excited, but how to attract more (particularly white collar) fans, sponsors, and make the racing even more exciting...

Reverse grids have been tried, long races, short races, pit stops.... the lot... and yet the same problems still exist.

I believe for the long term sustainability and growth of "Australian Touring Car Racing", a evolution of the rules is required... some of the regular posters on here are going to probably have a huge go at me for saying this, but i think it is time we went backwards (in a way) to go forwards...

The rules are the place to start. The rules would need to be opened up to allow other manufacturers a cost effective entry point to competing. A strictly V8 rulebook will probably not work - so the V8 Supercar brand would have to change.

The rules opened up to allow multi-cam V6's or in-line 6's to compete - which would probably be more attractive to a Toyota, a Mitsubishi, a BMW. I guess it would be preferable to keep the RWD format (no 4WD) - but allow the 6 cylinder cars a reduction in weight, an increase in tyre size, brake size, aero, to allow them to be competitive with the V8 cars, a ban on turbo's i havent really thought about..best to try at least to keep it simple...

This is starting to get back to the old Group C rules - back to the future we go...

All this would require a heavily regulated parity system. Yes folks, the P word...

Australian Touring Car Racing has traditionally never been able to agree on a parity system - this would be a massive issue. At the moment it is easier to regulate parity on 2 very similar cars (the commodore and falcon) than on a number of different cars of different engine size and body shape, size etc..3

Different cars, different performance strengths, more passing, more interest...
Imagine Holden,Ford,Toyota,BMW,Nissan and co all battling it out at the front of the greatest touring car championship in the world.

Holden and Ford would naturally buck at this - letting other manufacturers 'invade' the house they built... but it could also work in their collective favour - more interest, exciting racing, and the V8's would naturally be the weapon of choice for Bathurst... if they dont become more open to the concept, their investment could deminish very rapidly as the sport could decline...with lack of interest and variety....

Teams would benefit - more 'factory backing' for teams to allign with manufacturers - lmage an outfit like GRM - how they could grow and benefit from an influx of manufacturer dollars from someone like a Nissan or Toyota. This would have great benefits that would , or should, flow down to the Fujitsu ranks. Teams running 'new' cars would have extra test days to get their new cars up to speed with the Holdens and Fords.

All of this plan would of course have to be regulated by the Cost cap, to ensure that entry into the series would be affordable to Manufacturers in Australia... how to achieve this would be another problem..

The duck shooting gallery is open.. i know i will cop a bit of a ribbing over this thought, but it would create a whole new level of "touring car racing" in Australia....

Thoughts guys ?
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Old 21 Jul 2007, 05:59 (Ref:1968830)   #5
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To all the proponents of the multi-make formula... Tell me what's wrong with the Carrera Cup and FFord categories? Please don't mention its boring racing because there's not enough makes.

We have many categories of motorsport. If you don't like V8SC racing, choose a category you'll be happy to support. There is a good reason why V8SCs are so popular, having Ford and Holden compete is a major reason as the two rival makes build cars that we can all relate to. The fact that the racing is close is another. Sponsors are happy to throw their weight behind it and it's professionally run.
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Old 21 Jul 2007, 06:13 (Ref:1968833)   #6
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Why not just forget about V8SC and get behind the production car categories? If the 3 current ones banded together it would be pretty strong.
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Old 21 Jul 2007, 08:14 (Ref:1968862)   #7
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vote with your feet.. if you want more interesting racing / more brands go and watch some production racing or support your club racing more.
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Old 21 Jul 2007, 09:31 (Ref:1968897)   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSbaby
If you don't like V8SC racing, choose a category you'll be happy to support. There is a good reason why V8SCs are so popular, having Ford and Holden compete is a major reason as the two rival makes build cars that we can all relate to.
If in 93 Channel 7 and Ford and Holden got together to start a new series called 'V8 Supercars' that's fair enough.

Unfortunately they race in the rather more traditional category the Australian Touring Car Championship a title traditionally opened to all brands of mass produced cars, and that's a problem is it not?

Last edited by WebberForWDC; 21 Jul 2007 at 09:37.
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Old 21 Jul 2007, 09:35 (Ref:1968898)   #9
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Why not just forget about V8SC and get behind the production car categories? If the 3 current ones banded together it would be pretty strong.
We can try and solve the V8 Series problems, but yeah - production car racing provides an excellent base for the car companies to become involved at more or less a grass roots level. If only the Performance Car Championship and the CAMS Shannons Australian Production Car championship can get together to have one, strong production car series in Australia. This series would be a great supporting act to the V8SC.

Contrary to popular belief, One make categories do not always provide great racing... in an 'open' series, different cars of different configurations have different strengths, thus creating passing opportunities and interest. I am a huge fan of Production car racing, and think that it has a great future.

The production car guys need support to rebuild the production car base in australia after procar's collapse. It has been great before, and i am sure will be great again with the 12hour and a strong series with great support. This racing would be more cost effective than some of the 'one make' series and actually have some relevance to the general public....ie: How many people can afford to buy a Porsche GT3 cup car...

A bit of variety would be refreshing.

The point of my last post was some ideas on how to improve the current "Australian Touring Car Championship/V8 Series" to improve some long term issues that the sport faces. The V8SC, as the premier class, carries the burden of flying the domestic flag for motor sport in general and their decisions and success flows down to the local state events. I am certainly not anti-holden or anti-ford, but fear as a fan that the bubble may burst soon and what measures can be suggested to prevent the sport from sliding back to oblivion.
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Old 21 Jul 2007, 09:46 (Ref:1968903)   #10
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The APCC was mentioned earlier up.

If the V8 Utes instead of being a new category, had been constructed by applying a regulation change on the APCC allowing only a new regulation set for V8 Utilities in the Australian production car championship (despite a WRX for example winning 99 and 00 titles, just as Nissan had won several previous titles in the tourers) [to keep Proton happy a special dispensation for the Satria to continue for a couple seasons would even have been allowed just like BMW in the tourers] ...

this scenario would hardly be considered reasonable would it? Yet that is what V8 Supercars is for touring cars!

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Old 22 Jul 2007, 00:45 (Ref:1969534)   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WebberForWDC
If in 93 Channel 7 and Ford and Holden got together to start a new series called 'V8 Supercars' that's fair enough.

Unfortunately they race in the rather more traditional category the Australian Touring Car Championship a title traditionally opened to all brands of mass produced cars, and that's a problem is it not?
If you think so.
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Old 22 Jul 2007, 03:03 (Ref:1969564)   #12
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F1 restricts 7L twin turbo v8's, they also restrict V10 and V12. The Porsche Cup wont let a Ferrari or a Lamborghini in the race. How unfair are these rules!!!!!!!!
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Old 22 Jul 2007, 03:09 (Ref:1969566)   #13
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V8SC & ATCC mentioned in one breath? They are two mutually exclusive concepts. Even moreso now that they have to shrink the crumpledore to make it eligible to race in V8 taxicabs.....
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Old 22 Jul 2007, 04:40 (Ref:1969580)   #14
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Originally Posted by WebberForWDC
This thread is about the V8's!
Sorry about that, old chap. I completely misread your original post.

Oops.

So anyway, I don't think of V8 Supercar as the ATCC at all. In fact, I;d have to say that the ATCC is dead to me.

Died a long time ago circa 1993.
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Old 22 Jul 2007, 05:35 (Ref:1969593)   #15
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I agree with what the last couple of posts have alluded to, take the ATCC title away from the V8SC and give it to something else. I don't think V8SC would care apart from the fact it would strengthen an opposition series.
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