v8 supercars, holden, ford& chrysler ??????

onfullnoise · 14 Sep 2004, 03:34 (Ref:1095860)

is it possible we will have 3 makers [holden ford chrysler ] in supercars v8 ,as all 3 will have v8 rear wheel drive cars in our market place and on our roads by this coming christmas ?????

Dingo · 14 Sep 2004, 03:37 (Ref:1095861)

If you're asking if we'll see another manufacturer in V8 Supercars, the answer is almost certainly no. Holden and Ford like their duopoly too much to let a third party get into the fun. Maybe if Holden or Ford dropped out someone else may pick up the ball...

Schrodes · 14 Sep 2004, 08:14 (Ref:1095999)

I'm pretty sure any manufacturer in the V8 Supercars must be an Australian road car manufacturer. That leaves only Mitsubishi and Toyota.

Crowestar · 14 Sep 2004, 09:44 (Ref:1096077)

Would be nice but I can't see it happining for a while

Senna05 · 14 Sep 2004, 10:05 (Ref:1096098)

Mitsubishi is owned by DAIMLER-CHRYSLER...

So, that means if they make a Mistubishi SLK, or Mitsubishi Charger, NP's...

racer69 · 14 Sep 2004, 13:24 (Ref:1096326)

Is there a rule that says the car has to be a current model?

Driver · 14 Sep 2004, 22:52 (Ref:1096836)

I have believed for a while now that the Chrysler 300C might be in contention for the V8 supercars. 4 doors, rear wheel drive with a 5.7 Hemi V8. Also, there are rumours that MMAL are looking at this car, as well as the Pajero, as the second car for their factory.

lcfp2297 · 14 Sep 2004, 23:08 (Ref:1096843)

The rules are that the race car must be based on a road car of the following specs

Four doors,
Rear drive
5.0 L V8
Built in Australia...

Obviously they have turned a blind eye to the 5.0L thing, but the rest they have not!

racer69 · 15 Sep 2004, 01:57 (Ref:1096912)

So there is no mention made of whether the entered car has to be a current model?

If not, then there is no reason stopping Toyota or Mitsubishi entering.

woodbine · 15 Sep 2004, 02:29 (Ref:1096923)

Quote:

Originally posted by Senna05
Mitsubishi is owned by DAIMLER-CHRYSLER...

So, that means if they make a Mistubishi SLK, or Mitsubishi Charger, NP's...

Daimler-Chrysler off-loaded the part of Mitsubishi that they owned a few months ago becuase they were losing too much money

lcfp2297 · 15 Sep 2004, 03:46 (Ref:1096939)

Quote:

Originally posted by racer69
So there is no mention made of whether the entered car has to be a current model?

If not, then there is no reason stopping Toyota or Mitsubishi entering.

What Mitsu's or Toyota's were made in the required configuration (in Australia)?

Quote:

From the AVESCO Operations Manual
C 1. DEFINITIONS
The following terms, with their meanings, are used throughout Division C.
Automobile means a land vehicle propelled by its own means, running on at least four wheels not in a line, which must be normally in contact with the ground and of which at least two must effect the steering and at least two the propulsion.

Family of a Vehicle means different series models belonging to one and the same production series of the same manufacturer. At least the number of automobiles specified in Rule C 2.1 for the category of Car with dentical external general lines of the bodywork must have been produced in 12 consecutive months. The material of the bodywork and the wheelbase dimension must be identical.

[SNIP]

C 2.1 Technical Definition and Class
2.1.1 The requirements of this Division C apply to V8 Supercars, which are defined as largescale Production Touring Cars comprising a specialised class of 5 litre, Australian produced, right hand drive, four door Cars, fitted with pushrod two-valve normally aspirated V8 engines.
2.1.2 There is only one class of Car – the V8 Supercar – with engines of up to 5000cc capacity fitted to Cars of which at least 25,000 examples, meeting the definition of Family of a Vehicle (Rule C 1), must have been produced.

[SNIP]

C 2.9 Model Eligibility
Only the following makes/models of Cars as detailed in the table below are eligible for
competition in each series:
2004 VCS AU,BA, VX,VY
2004 KVS AU, VX
2005 VCS BA, VY
2005 KVS AU,BA, VX,VY

AVESCO's operation manual lists eligible cars, so even if they match the criteria, they still have to be approved and appear in C2.9...

[EDIT] Just noticed that there is no mention of rear drive...

Driver · 15 Sep 2004, 04:13 (Ref:1096942)

Quote:

Originally posted by woodbine
Daimler-Chrysler off-loaded the part of Mitsubishi that they owned a few months ago becuase they were losing too much money

No they didn't, they just decided it wasn't worth putting any more money in.

Schrodes · 15 Sep 2004, 07:43 (Ref:1097001)

Quote:

Mitsubishi is owned by DAIMLER-CHRYSLER...

I realised that but I just assumed everyone would know that just because Mitsubishi is owned by Chrysler doesn't mean a Mitsubishi IS a Chrysler. Chrysler doesn't manufacture cars in Australia, Mitsubishi does. Mitsubishi can't whack their badge on a Chrysler and say "There you go, we have a car!"

Quote:

Just noticed that there is no mention of rear drive...

I remember when Toyota and Mitsubishi were toying with the idea of entering V8 Supercars AVESCO pointed out that it doesn't matter if the production version is front drive as long as the racing version is rear drive.

onfullnoise · 15 Sep 2004, 09:07 (Ref:1097050)

it is an interesting question to be put before the TRADE PRATICES COMMISION,,,

racer69 · 15 Sep 2004, 12:56 (Ref:1097239)

Quote:

Originally posted by lcfp2297
What Mitsu's or Toyota's were made in the required configuration (in Australia)?

AVESCO's operation manual lists eligible cars, so even if they match the criteria, they still have to be approved and appear in C2.9...

[EDIT] Just noticed that there is no mention of rear drive...

What i was getting at, half jokingly, was that if there is no mention that the car needs to be a current model (just built here), was that what would stop for example;

- Toyota entering a Lexcon
- Mitsubishi entering a Charger (from same family of make), or hell a Sigma.

Of course these would provide no interest to the manufacturer because they are old models, but the loophole is there to potentially do it.

Quote:

Originally posted by onfullnoise
it is an interesting question to be put before the TRADE PRATICES COMMISION,,,

There are a number of things in there, which seemingly preclude new entrants (both manufacturer wise and new entrant wise, as they have to go through a process of getting approved by TEGA) which would probably manke an interesting case, should someone push it.

Evomike · 16 Sep 2004, 00:11 (Ref:1097777)

Just one question? It says under rule 2.1.2 There is only one class of Car – the V8 Supercar – with engines of up to 5000cc capacity fitted to Cars of which at least 25,000 examples, meeting the definition of Family of a Vehicle (Rule C 1), must have been produced.

Just rang my Holden dealer, can't get one, can only have one if I take a 5.7 litre. I am sure there is a loophole elsewhere that gets Holden outa this one!

mjt57 · 16 Sep 2004, 00:34 (Ref:1097780)

With respect to engine size, isn't it a tad anachronistic to be running cast iron 5l V8s? Of course, if Ford was allowed to "homologate" its quad cam V8, Holden would be stuffed. While the old Gen III V8's not a bad engine, I doubt that it'd hold a candle to the Ford plant if either were allowed to be worked on.

Still, it'd be nice to see a category where current model Holdens and FOrds running their current engines in a modified form. Sort of like Group A, but tweaked better.

lcfp2297 · 16 Sep 2004, 01:29 (Ref:1097798)

Quote:

Originally posted by Evomike
Just rang my Holden dealer, can't get one, can only have one if I take a 5.7 litre. I am sure there is a loophole elsewhere that gets Holden outa this one!

and the current Ford's are 5.4L...

MJT, Wouldn't it be just as anachronistic to run alloy OHC engines?

Not much has changed in internal combustion engines in the last 100 or so years...come to think of it, the whole idea of racing cars powered by an internal combustion engine is anachronistic...

Bring on the fuel cells...

...and the wheels on the bus go round and round...

mixxer · 16 Sep 2004, 05:59 (Ref:1097874)

with engines of up to 5000cc capacity fitted to Cars of which at least 25,000 examples, meeting the definition of Family of a Vehicle (Rule C 1), must have been produced.

depending on how you read it, that rule could mean
engines max capacity of 5000cc
and those engines must be fitted to Cars of which 25,000 examples etc etc

Techo · 16 Sep 2004, 07:53 (Ref:1097918)

yEp UP TO 5 Ltr :Are all the teams in breach of the rules -

I'm calling for the toughest penalty !
It's a JOKE fine them all !

Amaroo Park · 16 Sep 2004, 09:17 (Ref:1097984)

Quote:

Originally posted by onfullnoise
it is an interesting question to be put before the TRADE PRATICES COMMISION,,,

Sounds very much like Pierre too me

rdmdog · 16 Sep 2004, 09:42 (Ref:1098013)

Ive only seen photos of these 300C or whatever they are called, hopefully we'll be able to check one out at the motorshow?

Ozsport · 17 Sep 2004, 01:58 (Ref:1098873)

Cant really see how it would be any interest to the Trade Practices commission. The rules are laid out. You either conform to the rules or you cant play. Quite simple really.

Gaz170 · 17 Sep 2004, 09:15 (Ref:1099046)

Quote:

Originally posted by mixxer
with engines of up to 5000cc capacity fitted to Cars of which at least 25,000 examples, meeting the definition of Family of a Vehicle (Rule C 1), must have been produced.

depending on how you read it, that rule could mean
engines max capacity of 5000cc
and those engines must be fitted to Cars of which 25,000 examples etc etc

Ford & Holden produce a lot of cars with engines under 5000cc capacity.
Mind you, they only use 6 cylinders to make that capacity

racer69 · 17 Sep 2004, 10:06 (Ref:1099068)

Quote:

Originally posted by Ozsport
Cant really see how it would be any interest to the Trade Practices commission. The rules are laid out. You either conform to the rules or you cant play. Quite simple really.

When the rules state that the only cars eligible are Holden's or Ford's, irrespective of the other regulations, then there is something which would probably be of interest to them.

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