"Course" Grade Scrapped?

[Mark Mitchell]

Well there's my red dot back!

[EvilPumpkin]

Off topic comment alert I have to type this or my brain will explode! ugh just ignore me - it's been a really bad month what with one thing and another - sorry fazza - right, back to the topic. I'll hit the chamomile tea! Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

[JimW]

Originally Posted by scorch

I think the main concern here is that how do you tell the difference between a marshall that has raced to get signatures and has limited ability, and another marshall that has done 40+ meetings for the past 15 years.

Wrinkles and grey hair.

Jim

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Dave, going back to your comments for a moment. You rightly state that you ask what experience the guys have at Observer or IO briefing, surely that helps when working out who to pair with who? My comments were also made on the basis that we seem to have less and less marshals on post so we have to use them all to the best of their ability.

Fair comment, but I know that if I've got reds on post I can take their level of experience & ability as a given (although I have been caught out!); there's only so much time at the beginning of the day to get to know the team! Chief marshals or whoever is doing the allocations haven't got the time to get to know each marshal's history - grades are all they have to go on.

[JimW]

It's tempting to dive in to the detail of this but I would only loose the will to live and today has been quite good - so far - and I'm not going to spoil it.

I suggest that we leave the detail of what is going to change (for Race from 1 January 2007) until a properly presented launch - real soon now.

But you might find it interesting to see some of the issues which were taken into consideration:

• Why can't attendance be recognised in some way?
• Why is it so difficult (at some venues/for some clubs) to get signatures
• Why are there not grades for . . . (insert your own 20 strong list here)
• I don't want to be called a Trainee
• There definitely is a useful difference between Trainee/Incident/Fire.
• There definitely is not a useful difference between Trainee/Incident/Fire.
• Only Observers should be able to sign cards
• Only IOs should be able to sign trainee/course/Incident cards
• Both of the above.
• Newcomers must be able to train for Observer directly.
• People must go through all grades before becoming an observer so they understand the Team they are in charge of.
• We need a new name for Observers.
• Flag and Incident duties should be merged. (Not on the same day!)
• You should have to do a written examination and several other assessments to progress.
• You must do so many days and training days to keep your grade.
• We need to preserve the quality and experience of the marshalling force.
• We must get new people graded more quickly.
• We need more Martians in the sport. (No, I made that one up; we already have enough Martians. )

Regards

Jim

[CombeMarshal]

I think it works just fine as it is, I knew the grading system when I started and Thought it was great, having something to aim for, I was well chuffed when I got my Course grade, And over the moon When I got My Incident grade, And now I'm working at getting My IO grade, As said, I'd always put an Incident Marshal with a Course Marshal/Trainee, The biggest part is it makes experience easy to identify,
Now, shall we start on the 'Post Chief' Grade!

[EvilPumpkin]

Interestingly, the Irish car marshals club scrapped their grading system (which was mostly the same as the UK but only had course/incident/flag and IO) totally last year and replaced it with a new model.

I don't have the details handy but from memory, it's based on a crew system that doesn't differentiate on the actual duties i.e. incident/flag etc. I can't remember the actual grades but it was something along the lines of crew member (course/flag) crew chief (IO) and crew trainer (Ob X). I'm sure someone can give a clearer picture - I'm not participating so I didn't really look into it too deeply.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by JimW

We need a new name for Observers.

How about *Senior Citizens*
*The Old Marshal who Is No Longer Able To Jump Over The Armco*

[CombeMarshal]

There was something Mentioned At the Training day At Combe at the beginning of the year, They mentioned changing Observer to Post Chief!

[Nighthawk]

The Old Marshal who Is No Longer Able To Jump Over The Armco.
I aint no OAP and can still jump and run.
Post Chief!--make me feel like a postman or maybe an indian.....
Leave us OBS as we are

[KayBee]

I seem to remember some time ago, when Bob Rae was National Grading Officer, a list of requirements for signatures for each Grade was published in the then quarterly Marshals National magazine.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

Leave us OBS as we are

Amen!
I don't want to be called a Post Chief

[DavidBritainUK]

I'm not sure it really matters what we are called (unless it's offensive!), it's what we do that counts.

[Nighthawk]

Well Said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Amen!
I don't want to be called a Post Chief

I said that because I have marshalled with several people that have taken exception when I have suggested that "I Am In Charge"!

These people have said we are all the same and that no-one is in Charge!

I never like to be seen on post as Officious, but the fact remains that as an Observer, the buck stops here!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

Leave us OBS as we are

I'm happy to do that, but I reserve the right to wake the observer if

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

I'm happy to do that, but I reserve the right to wake the observer if

And when you're on post......it often does!

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

I said that because I have marshalled with several people that have taken exception when I have suggested that "I Am In Charge"!

These people have said we are all the same and that no-one is in Charge!

I never like to be seen on post as Officious, but the fact remains that as an Observer, the buck stops here!

Right you are Boss!

[DarrellB]

Correct me if i am wrong (everyone normally does) but don't IOs at Silverstone sign the upgrading cards for the incident team of the BRDCMC.

[Stephen Green]

I'm sure Chezza will be able to answer that one Darrell. On the subject of Observer, I too heard it was going to change to Post Chief.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

I said that because I have marshalled with several people that have taken exception when I have suggested that "I Am In Charge"!

These people have said we are all the same and that no-one is in Charge!

I never like to be seen on post as Officious, but the fact remains that as an Observer, the buck stops here!

I thought the Observer was in charge? As for "we are all the same", sure in one way - but there has to be a chain of command. I'd hate to see any large incident being run by committee - well I have seen it once or twice actually - and it never seems to work very well!

[Stephen Green]

I agree, every team no matter where, needs a leader and that is the Observer (Post Chief) in motorsport.

[scorch]

I'm interested in the "I'm the Obs so i'm in charge" personally i disagree.

On lots of occasions i have seen the obs first thing in the day to sign a sheet then not seen them all day, so how can that be in charge. there are even some posts i know of where the obs is on the opposite side of the track to the rest of us, so thats not really in charge either.

The way i see it is that we are all a team, just with different duties. if the observer wants me to do something that i see and unreasonable or even dangerious (that has happened), then i'm in charge and i will refuse (and have done).

I would not expect a obs to come and tell me how to to push a car or how to deal with an incident, same as i would not tell his how to report the incident.

Granted i accept that while he is in contact with race control he may have a better picture of the thoughts of the clerk, like he may be planning on putting out the red flag, but there is ways to suggest a course of action and the reasons rather than the size 12 boot of the "i'm in charge" approach.

[Asp]

Originally Posted by scorch

I would not expect a obs to come and tell me how to to push a car or how to deal with an incident,

Conversely, I would.
The observer is in charge of training - if I submit my upgrade card to him/her, I prefer comments when I get the card back at the end of the day.
Sometimes it can be "Everything went well, keep it up". Sometimes it can be "instead of that, do this". Providing it's done in the way of constructive criticism (as is generally the case) instead of "I know best", then it's good for learning how to marshal properly - and it is the obs telling me how to deal with things.

[EvilPumpkin]

I don't really care who's in charge (provided they know what they're doing) but I do think that someone has to be.

Team yes - but a team still has to be led.

As for refusing to do something that you feel is unsafe, that's everyone's perogative and has no bearing on who's running the post.

The way I've always understood the heirarchy (in the UK - and obviously assuming that there are enough personnel to perform all roles) is as follows:

Observer - in charge of the post in general and communications with control - liases with the IO regarding incident management, deals with post administration (sign on sheets etc.)

IO - in charge of incident management including managing set up of post (extinguishers etc.), deployment of available marshals, co-ordinating incident handling etc.

Flags - would you believe...flagging!

Course/Incident marshals - working under supervision of IO for incident management on the post.

I don't actually see what the problem is with this?