Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[HJJ]

Another story/take on the subject.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20131203/ALMS/131209966

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by TME45

Deltawing is back to GT6...... with TWICE!!!

Simon! Is there something you haven't told us????

[optica]

I echo the sentiment that hopes Bowlby doesn't suffer through this regrettable state of affairs. He is the one who staked his reputation on the success or failure of this unique vehicle which would never have even existed if he hadn't thought of it in the first place. Any company could have built it who had the required equipment and now it seems the money to claim ownership of it....Bit sad if this will be the future of any other radical idea that comes off the drawing board of any other innovative engineer.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Brownj

Marshall Pruett has a good article on the lawsuit here:

http://www.racer.com/panoz-led-delta...rticle/323046/

Something that stands out to me: there were several charges against Bowlby and Nissan that are based on oral agreements.... so shame on DW and DWP56 for not getting signed contracts!

But I will say the DW group have a good case concerning many of the charges.

ouch!.......a huge breach of confidentiality and IP by "Nissans new employee".........once Carlos Gohsn gets his teeth into this I think heads will roll or Don & Chip will get a huge cheque for hush money, as it looks like Nissan have committed too much to the race and road projects to pull out now, and if they did pull out it would basically be an admission of guilt, so I think a big cheque will solve it.........in a Japanese company people "top themselves" for less, a very dishonourable situation........this is indeed a very serious.........I must admit I was confused why the group split, I guess there is more to this story than is public????........more to follow I bet

[miatanut]

This is just a shakedown and I hope Dr. Don loses. Nissan was and is devoting the proper resources to the concept to make it competitive while Dr. Don is doing a shoestring thing that has been making a mockery of the concept. They don't have a clue how to develop it.

The concept was already out there in the public, as they were building it they were documenting it with videos posted on the internet, but Bowlby is guilty of exposing trade secrets?

Maybe there should be a side-by-side lapping test and we will see which one goes faster. If the Nissan version goes significantly faster with similar fuel consumption, they can't be depending on stolen secrets. They've built the better mousetrap.

[Maelochs]

"If the Nissan version goes significantly faster with similar fuel consumption, they can't be depending on stolen secrets."

I think we can already be sure that the Nissan will use less petrol, though since it will be running in France it will likely use a lot more uranium and a little more coal.

If DeltaWing Llc owned the intellectual rights to the DWing, then Nissan flat ripped them off. I also expect a settlement, because Nissan is in to deep to quit and in too deep to win.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

"If the Nissan version goes significantly faster with similar fuel consumption, they can't be depending on stolen secrets."

I think we can already be sure that the Nissan will use less petrol, though since it will be running in France it will likely use a lot more uranium and a little more coal.

If DeltaWing Llc owned the intellectual rights to the DWing, then Nissan flat ripped them off. I also expect a settlement, because Nissan is in to deep to quit and in too deep to win.

Panoz can't deny Bowlby a right to make a living, and the thing he's got to sell is an unusual approach to racing car packaging.

On the other hand, we keep hearing there is nothing new or unusual about this car. That's a high hurdle Panoz has to clear. They have to establish that it is in fact new and unusual. There have been three wheeled cars. There have been four wheeled cars where the track was wider at one end than the other. There have been cars with a significant weight bias to one side or another. There have been cars that had bigger tires on the end with more weight.

Nissan can't violate anything Panoz has a patent on. Beyond that, it's all in a grey area. This is just like a class action lawsuit. Yes, Nissan will pay Panoz to go away. Eventually.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by miatanut

This is just a shakedown and I hope Dr. Don loses. Nissan was and is devoting the proper resources to the concept to make it competitive while Dr. Don is doing a shoestring thing that has been making a mockery of the concept. They don't have a clue how to develop it.

The concept was already out there in the public, as they were building it they were documenting it with videos posted on the internet, but Bowlby is guilty of exposing trade secrets?

Maybe there should be a side-by-side lapping test and we will see which one goes faster. If the Nissan version goes significantly faster with similar fuel consumption, they can't be depending on stolen secrets. They've built the better mousetrap.

Let me clarify a few things, Dr Don made his fortune via patenting the medical patch as a means of administering antibiotics through the skin, like the nicotine patches to help quit smoking.........therefore Dr Don knows all about patenting.........as do I........ I am named as the inventor on 9 patents........if Dr Don & Co have a granted patent detailing the DW concept, then Nissan are royally screwed and this is patent infringement by Nissan, and Dr Don & Chip is quite right to launch a case against Nissan.......but its a big "if"......do Dr Don & Chip have a granted DW patent, I dont know???.....just because Ben Bowlby thought of the idea and he is probably named on the patent means nothing, the patent will be owned by the parent company that he worked for, so the ownership rights are therefore controlled by Dr Don and Chip Ginassi.........if they have a granted patent!

[EricS]

Here are 3 I found using google patent search:
https://www.google.com/patents/USD631396
https://www.google.com/patents/USD665703
https://www.google.com/patents/USD644146

[gwyllion]

So Panoz owns patents on "The ornamental design of a race car, as shown and described."

I failed to see how he can make any claims on the Nissan Bladeglider concept with those patents

[Maelochs]

The suit is not about patents at all---it is about intellectual property and proprietary design, testing, and construction information.

Panoz claims that Bowlby's contract with Ganassi (where he first designed the DW) and with DW56, gives the DW Llc and DW56 control over everything Bowlby thought, drew, and proposed specific to the DW.

The issue before the courts is whether the ZEOD and BladeBiter are actually independent designs, or are based on the DW, or on information learned through building and testing the DW.

Considering the ZEOD is essentially a clone of the DW ... hard to say that nothing Bowlby designed or learned prior to joining Nissan influenced the ZEOD.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

The suit is not about patents at all---it is about intellectual property and proprietary design, testing, and construction information.

Panoz claims that Bowlby's contract with Ganassi (where he first designed the DW) and with DW56, gives the DW Llc and DW56 control over everything Bowlby thought, drew, and proposed specific to the DW.

The issue before the courts is whether the ZEOD and BladeBiter are actually independent designs, or are based on the DW, or on information learned through building and testing the DW.

Considering the ZEOD is essentially a clone of the DW ... hard to say that nothing Bowlby designed or learned prior to joining Nissan influenced the ZEOD.

take a read of this link below........IP is mostly a patent/copyright/trademark etc, but in some states a trade secret, my point being that this is about patents as much as the trade secret stuff.........now that I can see 3 patents were raised by Ben Bowlby on behalf of DeltaWing LLC , this case does swing in Dr Don & Chips favor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property

[nkoske]

Originally Posted by knighty

take a read of this link below........IP is mostly a patent/copyright/trademark etc, but in some states a trade secret, my point being that this is about patents as much as the trade secret stuff.........now that I can see 3 patents were raised by Ben Bowlby on behalf of DeltaWing LLC , this case does swing in Dr Don & Chips favor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property

I have to say I agree. If Nissan takes it to trial after seeing those Design patents, they're not smart.

The legal test for design patents is:

The "ordinary observer" test dates from the Supreme Court case Gorham Co. v. White, 81 U.S. 511 (1871). According to Gorham, there is infringement "if, in the eye of an ordinary observer, giving such attention as a purchaser usually gives, two designs are substantially the same, the resemblance is such as to deceive such an observer, inducing him to purchase one supposing it to be the other."

After seeing those D patents and taking into consideration Apple v. Samsung battles (and what the jury decided with regards to Apples D patents) Nissan has a problem. It doesn't help that Nissan hired one of the named inventors on the patents that are owned by someone else. Bad Juju...I can see the opening statement now..."Nissan a giant billion dollar decided to steal the design from a 'little guy' after being involved in the 'little guys' program in 2012" A little David v. Goliath...juries eat the s--t up.

I will add the caveat that I'm not sure what prior art is out there if any, which could always invalidate the patents.

Since we seem to stating our credentials:
I'm a named inventor on two US patents, as well as a Fact and Expert Witness in a patent infringement jury trial (we won at trial and at the Fed. Cir. of Appeals ).

[TME45]

Originally Posted by miatanut

This is just a shakedown and I hope Dr. Don loses. Nissan was and is devoting the proper resources to the concept to make it competitive while Dr. Don is doing a shoestring thing that has been making a mockery of the concept. They don't have a clue how to develop it.

The concept was already out there in the public, as they were building it they were documenting it with videos posted on the internet, but Bowlby is guilty of exposing trade secrets?

Maybe there should be a side-by-side lapping test and we will see which one goes faster. If the Nissan version goes significantly faster with similar fuel consumption, they can't be depending on stolen secrets. They've built the better mousetrap.

Look at the painting of the DW 2013, you will know y they should do this!!!

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by nkoske

I have to say I agree. If Nissan takes it to trial after seeing those Design patents, they're not smart.

The legal test for design patents is:


After seeing those D patents and taking into consideration Apple v. Samsung battles (and what the jury decided with regards to Apples D patents) Nissan has a problem. It doesn't help that Nissan hired one of the named inventors on the patents that are owned by someone else. Bad Juju...I can see the opening statement now..."Nissan a giant billion dollar decided to steal the design from a 'little guy' after being involved in the 'little guys' program in 2012" A little David v. Goliath...juries eat the s--t up.

I will add the caveat that I'm not sure what prior art is out there if any, which could always invalidate the patents.

Since we seem to stating our credentials:
I'm a named inventor on two US patents, as well as a Fact and Expert Witness in a patent infringement jury trial (we won at trial and at the Fed. Cir. of Appeals ).

I R an architect.

With architects, the record prosecuting stolen designs hasn't been very good. I think in this case, their patents are too broad, and it is just like the mess that the computer software business is in, with lots of patents awarded when they never should have been.

Given the ordinary observer which matters here are wealthy, sophisticated racing car buyers, and the fact Nissan isn't even selling theirs, I don't think the confusion argument will carry very much weight.

This seems like on of these suits which, by the time it is resolved, it will all be irrelevant.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I R an architect.

With architects, the record prosecuting stolen designs hasn't been very good. I think in this case, their patents are too broad, and it is just like the mess that the computer software business is in, with lots of patents awarded when they never should have been.

Given the ordinary observer which matters here are wealthy, sophisticated racing car buyers, and the fact Nissan isn't even selling theirs, I don't think the confusion argument will carry very much weight.

This seems like on of these suits which, by the time it is resolved, it will all be irrelevant.

as well as costing a lot of money and doing the sport no good.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Caterham F1 test driver Alexander Rossi gets the D-Wing drive at Daytona.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111928

[Machin]

I thought it was worth posting this here for future reference, The Deltawing Race team have confirmed they are still running in "P1+ specification" at 490kg and 350bhp.

Originally Posted by @rich_machin on Twitter

@DeltaWingRace excellent pace shown at the Roar, are you still running at 490kg and 350bhp?

Originally Posted by @DeltaWingRace on Twitter

@rich_machin we are. The coupe specs are very close to the roadster's, engine is the same.

https://twitter.com/DeltaWingRace/st...61406193053696

Add in a 75kg driver and minimal fuel and you're looking at ~615bhp/ton compared to an LMP2 at ~460bhp/ton. I'm not going to bet against a race win for Deltawing this year!

[FGE]

A P2 could be easy at 500kg. But then a P2 is not within the rules.

I still ask myself, why the Deltadings still is alowed to race.
They should bann this silly thing.
It´s still way outside the rules. (And was supposed to be a one-race-and-off-you-go to me)

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Machin

..... I'm not going to bet against a race win for Deltawing this year!

Why would they be winning this year? What has been changed on the car that would allow them to be better than the last year?

[Machin]

Originally Posted by deltawing

Why would they be winning this year? What has been changed on the car that would allow them to be better than the last year?

Nothing from the sound of it has been changed on the car except the tyres.... but all the other P1's have been outlawed, and yet the Deltawing is running in last year's P1 spec against P2 cars.... it now has a massive power:weight advantage over it's rivals.

[Disraeli Eers]

Here's a video of some improvements made for this season's car

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-ov_...em-uploademail

[deltawing]

What are the improvements?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Disraeli Eers

Here's a video of some improvements made for this season's car

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-ov_...em-uploademail

Go to 2:41, pause, blow up the picture to large, and look at the standard of the welding on the tube intersections! Looks like a pigeon did it! Simply unbelievable on a racing car.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by wnut

Go to 2:41, pause, blow up the picture to large, and look at the standard of the welding on the tube intersections! Looks like a pigeon did it! Simply unbelievable on a racing car.

The society of the Welding Pigeons just got offended to the bone for associating them with such a poor job!