[Team] McLaren - can they compete?

[knighty]

Originally Posted by godlameroso

The mixed axial centrifugal compressor is very compact and efficient, and if they had a little more space to make it the size they want(could just be better intake packaging) it could deliver enough boost pressure. Their harvesting is already at a good level, the next step is implementing their version of TJI/CVCC or whatever they're doing, but Honda likes doing things their own way, so they could be doing something completely different.

No it is not....otherwise the rest of the field would be doing it, I design turbo-machinery and boosting system for a living, the efficiency has a direct relationship with turbine wheel diameter, and as Honda squashed it within the confines of the V6 engine, they by default drastically limited the OD of the turbine, I checked the theory with a colleague who has been designing turbomachinery for 40 years, an ex Rolls-Royce jet engine designer, now runs his own consultancy, and the flaw was mainly in the small turbine size and axial flow nature, all being limited by 125,000rpm, it might have worked with 200K or 300K rpm, but the rules do not allow that......and on Mclarens size I also believe they had a tiny and undersized KERS battery for "size-zero" reasons, so both mistakes compounded each other to make a real mess of the 2015 season

"Could" and "if" are big words......as the old saying goes: "if your auntie had 80ll0cks, she'd be your uncle"

.

[godlameroso]

Originally Posted by knighty

No it is not....otherwise the rest of the field would be doing it, I design turbo-machinery and boosting system for a living, the efficiency has a direct relationship with turbine wheel diameter, and as Honda squashed it within the confines of the V6 engine, they by default drastically limited the OD of the turbine, I checked the theory with a colleague who has been designing turbomachinery for 40 years, an ex Rolls-Royce jet engine designer, now runs his own consultancy, and the flaw was mainly in the small turbine size and axial flow nature, all being limited by 125,000rpm, it might have worked with 200K or 300K rpm, but the rules do not allow that......and on Mclarens size I also believe they had a tiny and undersized KERS battery for "size-zero" reasons, so both mistakes compounded each other to make a real mess of the 2015 season

"Could" and "if" are big words......as the old saying goes: "if your auntie had 80ll0cks, she'd be your uncle"

.

The turbine was not really nested in the V, the compressor was. I did not know that about the McLaren battery.

Honda has a lot of experience with mixed flow compressors and I agree with you on the turbomachinery RPM in relation the MGU-H. The RPM restriction is for the MGU-H not the turbomachinery, the regulations allow you to use a fixed gear to either over or under drive the MGU-H. I agree their concept was wrong, the small compressor and turbine meant the MGU-H was under driven under harvesting, but overdriven during deployment. It worked fine for producing power but was complete garbage during harvesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxVqWfQZeOQ

If you watch this video you can hear the compressor stalling on the straights, so in order to maintain power they had to give up harvesting via the MGU-H this left them sitting ducks as they ran out of electric energy. They had to rely on the MGU-K for harvesting which made them garbage under braking due to the increased reliance on harvesting. In other words the undersized compressor had a knock on effect.

I have full faith that for 2017 Honda can rectify the problem, and we'll see a much improved power unit, how much in relation to others is not known.

But I stand by my statement, a mixed flow compressor is very compact and efficient, it just wasn't in this instance, because of self imposed restrictions(ie. putting the turbomachine in the V)

[F1Guy]

Rumours suggesting McLaren and Honda partnership has reached a tipping point. The word is McLaren have given Honda a deadline. If Honda fail to meet that deadline, McLaren may terminate the partnership early.

I would not be surprised if the McLaren/Honda partnership ended at the conclusion of the 2017 season.

[Sodemo]

I KNEW McLaren would be sounding out Mercedes over a potential engine deal. I was speaking to someone here at my office about it literally last week. Make sense from McLaren's side...

[Moneyseeker]

The BIG problem McLaren have though is that Honda are also a major commercial partner to the team providing funding over and above the engine supply, so if McLren boot Honda into the long grass, they lose an engine and a backer. We don't see a long queue of sponsors wanting to join McLaren and even ZB has a tough job on his hands convincing a major brand to put 10's of millions into McLaren in it's current form and level of performance.

Really, there are too many McLaren eggs in the Honda basket - all of which would have been good eggs if the engine is good and the results were strong, as it is currently they are potentially bad eggs...

I am just putting it out there, McLaren is a vastly different business now than it was in it's race and championship winning days, does it even need to be in F1 anymore and if the board take the pragmatic view that they can only win as a 'factory' team and they have tried the only option open to them to achieve this and it hasn't worked (so far), do they take the view that shareholders via the main Mclaren group don't want to support the F1 team and look at other avenues? Would McLaren be better off in FE and Le Mans to support and promote the various arms of it's operation.

[BSchneiderFan]

I don't necessarily buy into the logic that a "customer" team can't win races and titles. Brawn was a customer team, as was/is Red Bull. McLaren would have to produce a better chassis than Mercedes, but they should have the resources and the experience for that to be at least possible.

[greentrumpet]

Would McLaren get the latest and best engines?

[BSchneiderFan]

Do Williams and Force India? I honestly don't know.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Do Williams and Force India? I honestly don't know.

No they would not, as they would otherwise pose a threat to the factory team. Only manor got the factory motors as they were a nice place to valitate changes to the works engines without being overtaken by it. A few years back Toto openly admitted the customer engines were not at the factory levels of performance. Ferrari have the same attitude, they are not in the F1 business to het beaten by their own engines, simple as that.

Personally if i was Zak Brown i would find an automotive backer and get Ilmor to build them an F1 engine for 2018, as they will never be allowed to win races with a customer motor. Perhaps someone like Jaguar LandRover could be tempted, it would be a great 3-way partnership.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by greentrumpet

Would McLaren get the latest and best engines?

Williams and FI got the current engine spec at the beginning of last year (so same as the Merc factory team). cant see why it would be different this year or for a new team in the future.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122882

as for updates over the course of the year...once they have been proven to work on the factory team and they can build enough new units i would imagine they then filter down to the Williams and FI supply depending on where they are with their own engine allotments, usage requirements, and terms of their respective supply deals (which may give the impression of unequal treatment).

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

I am just putting it out there, McLaren is a vastly different business now than it was in it's race and championship winning days, does it even need to be in F1 anymore and if the board take the pragmatic view that they can only win as a 'factory' team and they have tried the only option open to them to achieve this and it hasn't worked (so far), do they take the view that shareholders via the main Mclaren group don't want to support the F1 team and look at other avenues? Would McLaren be better off in FE and Le Mans to support and promote the various arms of it's operation.

interesting thought to put out there!

i want to say Ron was a big believer in the need to have exclusive factory support in order to win...would be a tad ironic if the board that ousted him have a similar belief.

if Mclaren take Liberty up on its offer to buy into F1 (an offer which has an expiry date) then that would signal their commitment to the sport beyond 2020...a lot of optimism about the new financial deal that Liberty are willing to make post 2020 so its difficult to imagine they will think about something other than F1 until they hear that offer (and whatever possible lump sum incentive payment they might be able to negotiate for themselves).

just speculation on my part, but they can always follow the Williams approach and work with a far more modest budget.

[Mike Harte]

It is now written into the rules that customer teams must be offered the same specification PUs as the factory outfits; however, the customer teams are not obliged to accept the latest spec units. Hence you have the case with Sauber running a year old spec unit, and, was it last year?, Red Bull choosing to not take updated PUs in the USA and Mexico.

[Richard C]

My assumption that the reports of McLaren overtures to Mercedes are...

1. Very real "Plan B" contingency planning. They would be fools to at least not looking into what it might take given the potential for a really bad 2017 season.

2. Public pressure on Honda.

Regarding funding, while Honda may provide a lot of money to McLaren, if all you can do is watch your cars stop on track, you really aren't racing, so there isn't much to lose. Regarding Alonso being paid for via Honda, if Alonso has an escape clause and pulled the eject handle, then that also validates the idea of going elsewhere.

I expect McLaren has little choice but to give Honda a handful of races to make progress. And if they are trending in the right direction, then it just will make any decision making for McLaren harder. I guess it just depends upon how fast they make progress.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Alonso will be retiring within a couple of years anyway. If getting rid of Honda means losing Alonso, I'd take it.

[chillibowl]

a random thought more than anything else...

a few years ago, when Red Bull started talking about thinking about replacing Renault opinions were really divided as to whether or not it was right for their disagreement to be handled in such a public way with some supporting RB and others supporting Renault.

granted in this case Honda is looking to be doing much worse then Renault ever did so its reasonable that most, if not all, of the blame is going towards Honda.

but i do find myself wondering (perhaps in a conspiratorial mindset) how much of this public consensus is the result of Zak Brown's influence over the Motorsports Network of publications and their ability to shape news stories...perhaps in a way that is more favourable to Mclaren.

[Adam43]

But McLaren aren't publically moaning like Red Bull did. Motorsport.com or not.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by greentrumpet

Would McLaren get the latest and best engines?

It isn't a question of hardware necessarily, it is software and setups and tuning. That is the difference between the 'works' engine and the 'customer' engine... various modes for the factory cars may or may not be available to mere privateers...

How about McLaren go for a naming rights strategy like RBR...

Powered by Honda can be on the side of the McLaren, with a Mercedes powerplant under the skin.

Would anyone notice?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

It isn't a question of hardware necessarily, it is software and setups and tuning. That is the difference between the 'works' engine and the 'customer' engine... various modes for the factory cars may or may not be available to mere privateers...

How about McLaren go for a naming rights strategy like RBR...

Powered by Honda can be on the side of the McLaren, with a Mercedes powerplant under the skin.

Would anyone notice?

That might be a badge to far.

[mikuni]

You can have a Honda badge on a McLaren with a Mercedes engine. There is an Aston Martin badge on the Red Bull TAG with a Renault engine, and an Alfa badge on the Ferrari. You can do whatever you want, as long as people agree and someone's paying.

[mikuni]

I'm still split between this being pure speculation, genuine or a mix of the two. I personally think it is most likely McLaren lighting a fire under Honda in an attempt to get some action out of Honda.

[bjohnsonsmith]

To beg the question, why is Honda finding it so difficult to make a competitive PU? This is now the beginning of their 3rd season since returning to F1 and one would think a company with Honda's heritage would finally come good, but clearly not.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

To beg the question, why is Honda finding it so difficult to make a competitive PU? This is now the beginning of their 3rd season since returning to F1 and one would think a company with Honda's heritage would finally come good, but clearly not.

They took a lot longer with the Earth Dreams concept...

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

To beg the question, why is Honda finding it so difficult to make a competitive PU? This is now the beginning of their 3rd season since returning to F1 and one would think a company with Honda's heritage would finally come good, but clearly not.

One word. Stubbornness.

People talk about Japanese pride. I have in the past worked with Japanese engineers on joint venture projects. They are great engineers, very talented, but they are also very stubborn. They want it done all their way. Even when faced with the obvious, they refuse to admit to their erroneous methods. People for some reason mistake their stubbornness for pride. Pride and stubbornness are two very different things. And in my experiences, the Japanese are very stubborn.

[VIVA GT]

I've just thought of an alternative explanation to all of this.
Maybe (as has been suggested) Honda have been completing 1000's of hours secretly testing their new engine in a mule car in Japan, (also on the secret McLaren underground test track)and have found that the performance is awesome. So, to not give the game away they 'hooble3d' the car in the pre-season tests and did very little running.
This could be the biggest sand-bagging exercise in the history of F!.
All will be revealed later in Australia...

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

One word. Stubbornness.

People talk about Japanese pride. I have in the past worked with Japanese engineers on joint venture projects. They are great engineers, very talented, but they are also very stubborn. They want it done all their way. Even when faced with the obvious, they refuse to admit to their erroneous methods. People for some reason mistake their stubbornness for pride. Pride and stubbornness are two very different things. And in my experiences, the Japanese are very stubborn.

My only experience of working with them was many years ago in the WRC, but we had exactly the same situation. Success came when European engineers were listened to or allowed control...... I'd still err towards calling it pride though.

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I've just thought of an alternative explanation to all of this.
Maybe (as has been suggested) Honda have been completing 1000's of hours secretly testing their new engine in a mule car in Japan, (also on the secret McLaren underground test track)and have found that the performance is awesome. So, to not give the game away they 'hooble3d' the car in the pre-season tests and did very little running.
This could be the biggest sand-bagging exercise in the history of F!.
All will be revealed later in Australia...

Viva- whatever you're taking, can I have some please.....