Roll cage clarification request

[Al Weyman]

I am finishing off preparing a Camaro to CTCRC Pre-74 regulations and I have a query about the roll cage regulations as updates have been introduced since I originally prepared this car in 91. I raced it till around 95 and it has been scrutineered many times without problem. I do remember asking a scrutineer a while ago if the car with its earlier 91 vintage Aley cage would still be legal (40mm tubes?) and was assured that is that was how the car was built it would be OK but a newly prepared car would require the large tube sized cage.

Is this still the case as the cage is very solid with a double cross brace and welded to the body and would be very costly and time consumming if I had to replace it for a 50mm tube model.

[zefarelly]

the new FiA rules state a 50mm (2") main roll over hoop, As I understand it for club racing this isnt compulsory, 40mm is ok, not sure whether theres a cut off date though, it doesnt seem to say

last years blue book states 45mm Dia x 2.5mm thick OR 50mm x 2mm for cages made/approved before 1.1.95 the 40mm x 2mm or 28 x 2.5.

[Al Weyman]

Thanks for replying Zafarelly but you see why I am confused I am still not sure whether this is OK or not. I mean presumably they don't keep a record of what has been previously OK so who has the final say? No one wants all the hassle of paying entry fees, dragging miles for a race then to get knocked back on a tecnicality especially when for example there will be some cars like at Goodwood for example batting around with no cage. Personally I would feel reasonably secure in these tanks even without a cage as they are like strong. All very confusing.

[BertMk2]

Can you get clarification from the series organisers? Or failing that directly from the MSA?

I seem to remember something about one of the rallycross supercars having to have its rollcage replaced when it was brought out after a period of inactivity. I think the original cage was aluminium but had to be swapped for steel (I'm not sure if this was purely because of a reg change or because there were other bodywork changes that meant the cage had to be changed and therefore replaced with a new spec cage).

As you say it's something you want to get cleared up long before you turn up at scrutineering - it's not exactly a job you can do a quick fix on!

[Tim Falce]

Rule 1.5.5 states "All aluminium alloy roll cages are prohibited".
Not sure if this rule is retrospective though.

[Peter Mallett]

Yes it is but I think Al was referring to the manufacturer who was John Aley. His company and its products were swallowed up by Safety Devices some years ago.

[zefarelly]

aluminium is a definite no no . .I'd assume you can stick with it for club events, until told otherwise, I know a fellow competitor was running the old size until last year, But I'd be looking to change in the near future either way, the other question is whether its welded or bolted and how much is in there . . . .another long winded discussion we had last year I think !

[Al Weyman]

I know Alloy is not on as we had a guy had to strip one out from an ex works RS1600 I think it was. It is part welded and bolted and will be a cow to change. Sorry to bring this up if it is an old topic but I was not around then.

[Peter Mallett]

You could always ask Safety Devices or Rollcentre. Whilst they'd be more than happy to sell you a new one they'll also provide advice. I mean it would be a bit daft if they said you had to change it but yet it was perfectly safe last year.

[Al Weyman]

No not last year Peter, the last time I would have raced the car would have been around 93/94. Good idea though.

[Peter Mallett]

Yeah, mine's from 94 too.

[Al Weyman]

And what is the tube diameter on your's Peter.

[imull]

if you have the roll cage certificate and the competition logbook, then provided it isnt ally or seamed, I dont think they can stop you using it. However, imho, if you are wondering weather its likely to be legal or not i would suggest phoning John Ryan at the MSA and also Rollcentre about a quotation....

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

And what is the tube diameter on your's Peter.

Main hoop would be 40mm. (IIRC).

[Al Weyman]

Main hoop would be 40mm. (IIRC).

Well in that case mine should be fine, thanks guys. thats what I wanted to hear.

[Peter Mallett]

There is an interesting point about this though.

As I said, up until last year 40mm was considered good enough. Now all of a sudden its got to be 50mm. Unlike the argument about flameproof overalls we've had recently I do think this is a bit OT. The addition protection afforded by an increase of 20% in diameter must be miniscule. Especially as the strength of the cage is based upon triangulation.

[zefarelly]

I think you'll find that rolled and wrecked cars do get inspected at events etc, equally I guess the manufacturers will always strive to produce something better. if you look at a main hoop, its bent tube, theres no triangulation in there so personally I think a 2" tube is great, having said that every car is different, and if you where to do finite analysis you'd probably find 40mm is more than enough on a small car, due to the overall mass and rigidity due to size, but 50mm might not be enough on a large barge. . . . such as your average American 'shopping' car

[Peter Mallett]

Actually there is triangulation on mine. I've also added bars for the doors and across the width of the main hoop. These are clamped into place then welded at the "adjustement" joint. The triangulation runs from the top right hand side to the left hand wheel arch.

[zefarelly]

ah yes, mine has that too, basically to protect the beauffont/wig/toupe/affro/solar panel

[R59]

As long as you're not doing FIA events, your old cage is fine Al.

There were tales about a certain "leading" cage manufacturer that made cages out of what I would call substandard material, but they were acceptable because they had been tested and certified by the MSA.

I have always bought mine from Rollcentre, they have always used the best materials, and having had the cause to "test" one of Martin's cages, I can honestly say, they are darned good!

Back to your original comments Al, when are you hoping to drag your ol' Camaro out then?

Rob.

[Al Weyman]

Well I fired it up for the first time at the weekend and it sounded pretty good, no leaks and plenty of oil pressure, starter motor is not up to the task of the 11 to 1 compression motor though so I am going to have to fit a high touque geared mini starter at the weekend as we cant be having that stalling on the grid business and it is very margibal as is.

Apart from that I have to raise the front suspension to comply with the 4" clearance reg although I still won't make that at the front shock absorber lower mounts and I have been asking for clarification (Peter?). Then the rear brakes seem to have locked themselves up after fitting the pesky hydraulic handbrake (also to comply) , after that a bit of bodywork, new seat, belts and extinguisher and we should be ready for a try thats if I pass my medical at the end of the month of course.

[zefarelly]

my recommendation of a roll centre cage came from someone who lost a front tyre in a beetle down paddock hill bend and barrel rolled the car about half a dozen times, came out unscathed. His comment was simply 'well it saved my life'

I bought one, I think their mounting brackets and mothod are better than the competition as well (for FiA bolted cages)

[Peter Mallett]

I ran a Rollcentre cage in a previous car but now I have a SD cage. Not much difference if any IMO. But that may change with the type of car. Certainly RC are better for "bespoke" cages.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Apart from that I have to raise the front suspension to comply with the 4" clearance reg although I still won't make that at the front shock absorber lower mounts and I have been asking for clarification (Peter?).

I'm not sure here, all I know is that the only thing allowed to drop below the 4" datum is the exhaust.

There may be a waiver for your car. Have you contacted the Post Historic rep?

[zefarelly]

the waiver for the Cortina, and some Jags is the outer ends of the track control arms, it would be impossible unless you had bigger wheels, the exceptions are usually listed in regs ? I know the CTCRC do . . .the HRSR don't really have any !