Fifties Sports Car Racing Club (FISCAR)

[John Turner]

On the FiSCR website. It is almost ready, but just having a final 'tweak', so should be up there within a matter of days.

[jamesholland]

How does that Bristol fit the criteria? Nice though it is, it is a modern special and bears no relation to anything that came out of Filton at any time. It has a supercharger, the body is entirely new and that's just for starters.

[lml698]

James
You raise a very fair point. To date there are only outline regs and this will be rectified very shortly. As a result all cars have been by invitation ( with one or two exceptions that slipped in!) The Mitchel Special or Bristol " Mitchel" is clearly a modified car. We are now wrestling with how to clasify and offer up sensible regs for it. What we want is proper and fair cars and that is always a very subjective position!!! Clearly it is very easy to regulate and be damned and end up achieving nothing. Equally if one is too open then cheque books and out of period racing develops. I'm sure we won't please everyone but we'll do our best to navigate a way forward that we feel follows the spirit and principle of what we want to achieve.

[john ruston]

The Invitation Race GT's

The boys are telling me that this class shows a great deal of promise and people behind it are working to make sure it flys. Unusual in Historics as most organisers start series and assume they will be a success without working at it.

Must stick to cars as they were in period not could have been.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by john ruston

The Invitation Race GT's

The boys are telling me that this class shows a great deal of promise and people behind it are working to make sure it flys. Unusual in Historics as most organisers start series and assume they will be a success without working at it.

Must stick to cars as they were in period not could have been.

What no seat belts, roll bars, extinguishers etc?

[jamesholland]

Originally Posted by lml698

James
The Mitchel Special or Bristol " Mitchel" is clearly a modified car. We are now wrestling with how to clasify and offer up sensible regs for it. What we want is proper and fair cars and that is always a very subjective position!!! Clearly it is very easy to regulate and be damned and end up achieving nothing. Equally if one is too open then cheque books and out of period racing develops. I'm sure we won't please everyone but we'll do our best to navigate a way forward that we feel follows the spirit and principle of what we want to achieve.

It's not a modified car at all - it's a scratch built special to a design that never existed in the day.
It's a lovely looking car but I can't see how you can incorporate it into a set of regs that would encourage standard cars.

[john ruston]

We don't have seat belts or roll over hoops in Pre War so why in 50's cars.

Thinking about it no roll over hoop in my Speedster.

We didn't have any seat belts on Tour Auto.


Neither modified nor scratch built pretend cars should be allowed.

[jamesholland]

Originally Posted by john ruston

We don't have seat belts or roll over hoops in Pre War so why in 50's cars.

Agreed

[Brian A]

This coming Sunday, the MG Car Club are running their own attempt at 50s racing at Donington in a race described as "Iconic 1950s Sports Cars". Almost entirely populated by MGs as you'd expect - 3 MGAs, many T-types and some of the special bodied XPAG engined cars - Leco, Lester etc. Nice addition of a Jowett Jupiter for some variety. It consists of 2 x 20 minute races and hopefully won't include any Cadillac engined Allards

I love Donington so will be taking the Elite along for some fun and will then head down to Mallory for the Bank Holiday Monday meeting being run by the CSCC.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by john ruston

We don't have seat belts or roll over hoops in Pre War so why in 50's cars.

This is slightly off topic but it has set me thinking (so apologies).

First as an argument to JR, he and his drivers do wear fire proofs and helmets in their pre war cars.

But his point raises a dicotomy. What is the difference (in terms of dynamics) between a pre war and a 1950s car? Surely there is no essential difference, in fact arguably, brakes etc. must actually be better in the more modern car, so it does appear strange that if you can run the older car without these things, you can't also run a newer car without them. (I am assuming the MSA/FIA requirements for cages etc. would apply here).

On the safety gear subject, not sure if anyone realises but, the SNELL foundation has two classes of helmet. One for motorcycles and one for racing cars/saloons etc. Their reasoning is, partially, that on a motorbike the driver is less likely to strike his head than in a car which is fitted with a roll cage. I think their tests assume that on a motorcycle the helmet is more likely to suffer sliding contact, rather than direct impact. They therefore run different tests for each class of helmet. Also the fire proofing requirements for a car and a motorcycle helmet are different which is why you can't (shouldn't?) use a motorcycle helmet in racing cars.

Anyway, back to the original question raised by JR's comment. Can you race (not rally) a 1950's car without a roll cage/harness etc?

[john ruston]

Answer,Helmets and fireproof PJ's.

Pre War Because they have to or want to.

[LAK]

Hi Peter. Yes you can race a 1950s car without roll cage or harnesses although some race organisers insist that you run to the next period safety requirements.

Our Aurelia does have a full roll cage as it was in the car when we bought it and we also have harnesess. We don't have FIA seats but they are a retro classic design (based on a 70's Porsche I believe) which we thought looked right in the car. When doing the ADAC Classic trophy races on year one scrutineer insisted that we either have a full FIA seat or reverted to the original - he quickly back tracked when I told Jason to get the bench seat out...

Mark, I've been following this thread and completely endorse your and John's views re eligibility - also looking forward to going back to handicap races whish we found great fun. I doubt we'll be able get 3 Aurelia's together in future so would a mixed Italian team work?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by LAK

Hi Peter. Yes you can race a 1950s car without roll cage or harnesses although some race organisers insist that you run to the next period safety requirements.

Thanks for that, it's something I didn't know.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by LAK

one scrutineer insisted that we either have a full FIA seat or reverted to the original - he quickly back tracked when I told Jason to get the bench seat out...

[John Turner]

Right, thought it only fair to create a new thread from some of the posts in the BDC meeting thread rather than swamp the meeting with our stuff. I will publish our elegibility list in the morning.

[lml698]

All those following this thread and the 50's sports race series will be pleased to know that regs and entry papers are now being sent out to known competitors by email for our next race on Oct 1st at Oulton Park. This is a 30 min race for one or two drivers with a 30 min practice. the entry forms will be on the FiSCaR website tomorrow to download ( www.fiftiesracing.org).

We are as previously stated looking to run 7 dates next year at major meetings. All entrants will have to be FiSCaR members and membership forms are just going onto the website.

[John Turner]

OK, this is our 'Core' list of cars that we have selected for the series. A great deal of thought and discussion has gone into this, so we are not looking for big debates or feel the need to justify our choices as to why something is in or something is not. I will however add a few explanatory/criteria notes after the list, in an effort to forestall some of the more obvious questions.

Make Model

AC - Ace, Ace-Bristol, Aceca
Alfa Romeo - 6C 2500, 1900 C/Ti, Giulietta Sprint (includes SV,SZ & Sprint Speciale)
Allard - J series, K series
Arnolt Bristol
Aston Martin - DB2, DB3, DB2/4, DB3S, DB MkIII
Austin Healey - 100/4, 100M, 100S, 100/6, Sprite Mk1
BMW - 507
Berkeley - Sports, B95/105
Bristol - 400, 401, 403, 404
Fairthorpe - Electron Minor, Electron
Ferrari - 166/195/212 Inter/Export, 225 Inter/Export, 250GT(Pre SWB models only)
Fiat - 8V
Frazer Nash - Le Mans Replica, Mille Miglia, Targa Florio, Sebring
Healey - Silverstone
HRG - Sports , Aerodynamic
Jaguar - XK 120, C-Type, XK140, XK 150/150S
Jensen - 541/541R
Jowett - Jupiter
Lancia - Aurelia
Lotus - Six, Seven Series 1, Elite
Maserati - A6, A6G
Mercedes-Benz - 190SL, 300SL
MG - MGA, MGA Twin Cam
Morgan - Plus 4, 4/4 Series II
Peerless - GT
Porsche - 356, 356A, Speedster, 550/550A
Sunbeam - Alpine, Alpine series I
Swallow Doretti
Triumph - TR2, TR3, TR3A
Turner - Sports/Mk1
TVR - Grantura Mk1


Notes:-

1) We have set an upper capacity limit of 4-litres, so no American big V8s. It allows us to include however, the 3.6/3.9 litre Ardun engined Allards, Jaguar XK 150 and Jensen 541. The XK150 is the only Jaguar with the 3.8 engine which we will allow in; the others must have the 3.4.

2) You will see that we have allowed a very small number of sports racers in. In respect of the Aston Martin DB3 and DB3S, it should be noted that all 4 members of the Committee are AMOC members. As a group we felt that with the direction in which AMOC is going with its current race programme, it was appropriate to provide an alternative racing haven for early Feltham Astons and this included the above two models. I felt particularly strongly about this and therefore accept any criticism (which I will, of course, ignore!) for their inclusion. It was felt appropriate to allow the C -type in, as a 'twin' to the DB3S, but it will be restricted to 'customer' spec cars only fitted with drum brakes and 3.4 engines to original spec. Two other sports racers appear in the list, the Healey 100S and the Porsche 550/550A. Frankly, all these cars are rare, and it is unlikely that we will see many, if any, on the grid. They do not represent the main body of our prospective grids.

3) We have bitten the bullet in respect of Lotus 6 and Lotus 7 Mk1 models and will accept these provided they are to original spec and are drum braked.

4) If you have a car not in this list which you feel would 'fit' the series, then please ask, via our website. We have a much larger database of cars which we drew on. For example you will see no French makes, but if you have something suitable we will give it due consideration.

5) We would also be prepared to consider any small engined 'historically interesting' race cars, that maybe ran, for example, at Le Mans/Mille Miglia in the early to mid 50s and are in original spec, that would like the occasional run out but have nowhere to race currently.

6) As in any series, there will be frontrunners, just as there will be those running at the back, and we will have scratch awards, but 'pot hunters' are not to be encouraged and we will be attaching as much emphasis to team awards. And don't worry if you are a singleton from your marque; there will be others like you, so we can create teams at the event if necessary.

We are working on the regs (and I'm not particularly technical, so can't go into detail myself) but, I would think by now you have a strong impression of what is required. Our aim is to provide a stage on which owners of 50s sports and GT cars at or close to original specification, can enjoy themselves without the level of intensity that other areas of Historic Motor sport tend to move towards. The cars have to look right both externally and under the skin. If you open up the bonnet and see a bigger than standard engine, or 'go faster' bits from a later era, then this is not for you, unless you are prepared to revert to earlier spec. There are plenty of series available to those with modified cars.

We will be posting up a defining ethos statement in due course, but the objective is to provide an environment for gentlemanly racing conduct in a series of 6 -8 races a year for enthusiasts who are not out to prove anything other than that they enjoy sharing a grid of lovely old cars with like-minded enthusiasts.

[lml698]

Quite surprised not to see some positive/ negative/ surprised responses to what is always going to be a subjective list. !!!! Unusual for this site
I guess a lot of the usual suspects are in Cheshire sniffing Castrol R. Anyhow the next big hurdle we are chasing is getting the right dates for 2012.
We have our wish list of main tracks and events and are working our way through a list of begging letters !!!! July is looking competitive with Le Mans Classic and Silverstone Classic to avoid !!

[john ruston]

Well done.

Seems good to me.

Miss July as that's out with fancy meetings but Donington Festival first week in May or the VSCC at Donington?

Can you twin with VSCC as many have Pre War stuff and 50's cars.Ideal for us and we may have car for you?Just an idea.

[John Turner]

John, I don't think that I am giving anything away when I say that Mark is liaising closely with a number of established clubs to identify suitable dates to run the new series with. We seek to cooperate and co-ordinate, not compete, with others, and have no plans, in the near future, at any rate, to attempt to run our own meetings.

Incidentally, I wasn't intending to stifle discussion with my opening lines. It was only in respect of the list of eligible cars that I didn't feel we had the need to go into debate about, since the committee have 'been there, done that'. However, like Mark, I suspect many who would normally respond to this are currently with our HSCC friends at Oulton Park.

[john ruston]

The gang you want are doing Legends and what you need as a core group is a mix of Pre 63 Grid and Legends.

As both these operators want a Kings Ransom to provide a hours racing and sticky buns you have a big opening.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by john ruston

The gang you want are doing Legends and what you need as a core group is a mix of Pre 63 Grid and Legends.

As both these operators want a Kings Ransom to provide a hours racing and sticky buns you have a big opening.

spot on.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

On the safety gear subject, not sure if anyone realises but, the SNELL foundation has two classes of helmet. One for motorcycles and one for racing cars/saloons etc. Their reasoning is, partially, that on a motorbike the driver is less likely to strike his head than in a car which is fitted with a roll cage. I think their tests assume that on a motorcycle the helmet is more likely to suffer sliding contact, rather than direct impact. They therefore run different tests for each class of helmet. Also the fire proofing requirements for a car and a motorcycle helmet are different which is why you can't (shouldn't?) use a motorcycle helmet in racing cars.

Peter, I think the other differences for bike helmets revolve around how their protection is expected to work in a physical sense. From what I have seen and read one major difference between car and bike designs is the line around the neck . higher and shaped on bike helmets since riders are likely, on many bikes, to be leaning forward and raising their heads rather than lying back or sitting upright. Now the other aspect of that in an accident a bike rider is likely to be bouncing around unprotected and some part of the design relates to a compromise between making neck protection available and not potentially creating neck area damage by using a lower shell line at the rear of the helmet. Or so I read. Not sure of the details and there are no doubt other issues.

In the context of older cars with no belts and so on the potential is for the driver to be thrown clear of the car - not dissimilar to a bike situation. On which basis one wonders if a bike helmet would be quite appropriate. As far as I know the Morgan 3 wheeler crews race with bike equipment - leathers rather than overall or example. Would their experiences provide useful reference points for safety in the older 4 wheeled cars?

[lml698]

Simon/ John and others. We are is discussions with all the main players about good dates for 012. We will only take the right dates if available and we know exactly who and what our market is. We don't want or intend to compete against either Legends or Julius's race. We are aiming at Club racing but quality cars and quallity meetings at sensible prices. e.g. We are asking for £260 for a 30 min practice and 30 min one or two driver race at Oulton park on Oct 1st. I don't believe you can better that. We already have over 100 cars that compete on our list and aim to get this up to close to 200 by early next year. We know where the cars are and who owns them. We have other new, race formats for our 50's guys, up our sleve to bring out once we can show the demand. We will almost certainly be partnering VSCC next year as we see their meetings as " being in the right spirit " for what our drivers like. Fortunately FiSCRaC has a lot of experienced organisers involved with an extensive contacts book which helps to hopefuly get the balance right. Also it comprises "grafters" who put in the hours to make things happen. We can't promise miracles but I am certain there is no other group working harder to make things happen for the future!!! My advice is if you haven't got one ... go get a 50's sports car before April 2012 !!!!!!
Seriously however I am sure we can make this series fly with a bit of luck and a fair wind.

[Teddington Ted]

Any thoughts on the class structure ? Especially drums vs discs and under/over two litres